EU, impartial facts. Where to find

[hamster]

Re: Re:

The majority of European's most likey don't want much of their Elite's policy these days but have no way of making their voices really heard.

Well for starters actually bothering to vote in the European Elections would be a good thing. I'm appalled that people have the brass neck to criticise the EU as undemocratic when they don't even bother to vote.

But the public school, Oxford educated, City-employed Brexiters scarcely count as non-elite either.

 

[highlandsflyer]

Re:

The exit camp clearly has a lot more support than that narrow demographic.

Me, for example.

 

[technodup]

Innit, sad little smears like that are not only unhelpful inverse snobbery but are inaccurate too.

As was shown on a graphic a page or three back it's precisely those 'establishment' types, the 'elite', the Guardian readers who are more likely to be remainers. The bulk of your Brexiters are those fed up listening to the shite coming from those 'elites'; the MPs, the snouts in the trough bankers, politicos, non-profits, think tanks etc.

With the exception of those leading the campaign, your average Brexiter is quite the opposite of what was claimed above.

 

[al-onestare]

Re:

That's the first and probably only time I'll be categorised as elite. Cheers!

 

[technodup]

Re: Re:

That's the first and probably only time I'll be categorised as elite. Cheers!

I wouldn't get too excited. 'Elite' is quite different from elite. As it includes those who think they're smarter or better than others, and there are a lot of them showing their face re this referendum.

 

[al-onestare]

Re:

Indeed. Have you seen the latest Daily Mail apology doing the rounds on social media?

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

 

[hamster]

Well, I've never seen it claimed before that bankers read The Guardian.

Philip Stephens in the FT pointed out that the Brexit referendum is different: its consequences are asymmetric. If Britain opts for Remain it could well think again in, say, a decade or two. A Leave vote would be forever and could set out the path to the break-up of the UK. It is easy to see where the balance of risk lies.

While people may feel outraged that their political class has failed them (I agree, too many people who slid directly from student politics into party jobs and then MPs without ever running anything or seeing the harsh realities of real life) the solution is to vote them out, NOT to throw the teddies out of the pram and refuse to participate.

Compare Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall and Farage. Both outraged at the EU common fisheries policy on fish discards. HF-W met the commissioners and got the rules changed; Farage attended 1 out of 42 fisheries meetings, but found time to have a water fight in the Thames.

 

[technodup]

Well, I've never seen it claimed before that bankers read The Guardian.

I didn't claim that. It was one of the groups on the graphic, I accept the way I put it wasn't the clearest.

Philip Stephens in the FT pointed out that the Brexit referendum is different: its consequences are asymmetric. If Britain opts for Remain it could well think again in, say, a decade or two. A Leave vote would be forever and could set out the path to the break-up of the UK. It is easy to see where the balance of risk lies.

Which is utter bollocks. Firstly it's taken us 40 years to get this referendum. Second if we vote IN that could/will be taken as endorsement by the EU and give them licence to get their teeth in even further, making future referendums more difficult (not that they have a track record of accepting results anyway). Third, the last thing we need is a neverendum scenario similar to Scotland where it's the only thing on one side's mind, ready to be threatened at a moment's notice, or to be used as a pawn in other negotiations.

And on the flip side nothing is forever. This is scaremongering pish of the worst kind. If we vote OUT and in 20 years we think we want back in (unlikely imo) do we really think the EU, in all it's expansionist glory wouldn't want one of the biggest economies back within its clutches with its tail between its legs? I accept we might have to pay a punishment price, but that's the point, money and power talks.

There is no 'never' in politics. There's continual incremental shift towards where they want us to go. They know it, we know it and it's disingenuous for the media to make out otherwise. Project Fear mk II is in full effect.

Good result for England yesterday.

 

[hamster]

Sorry, it's not rubbish. A Brexit means an immediate separation and disjoint in all trading, commercial and legislative processes. Remain means business as usual. One is an unknown, the other is not. Therefore it's asymmetric - the consequences of one choice can be evaluated, the other cannot. Longer term, of course remains anyone's guess - either way.

The past 300 years have made it abundantly clear it is in our national interest to engage in Europe...from Blenheim, Trafalgar and Waterloo to the consequences of the assassination of a politician in Bosnia.

As even vote Leave will find it impossible to tow these islands elsewhere, Britain will remain in Europe even if not in the EU. Being outside the EU will diminish our influence on the continent, not increase it. How is that in the national interest?

 

[ajm]

Sorry, it's not rubbish. A Brexit means an immediate separation and disjoint in all trading, commercial and legislative processes. Remain means business as usual. One is an unknown, the other is not. Therefore it's asymmetric - the consequences of one choice can be evaluated, the other cannot. Longer term, of course remains anyone's guess - either way.

Do you actually believe that Remain is not an unknown, that things will go on exactly like they currently are if we were to vote Remain? If so, you're utterly mistaken.

The fact is that both Leave and Remain options are unknowns. The European Union is not at all stable but in rapid cultural, social and economic meltdown; the few countries actually putting up a show of reasonable stability (including and especially the UK) are propping up a huge collection of disaster zones at massive expense. Just to help things along, they're well on the way to getting Turkey joined up (completely ignoring our protests in the process.)

We are signed up to an utterly undemocratic collection of bodies which do not have our national interests at heart and our "influence" and "voice" has been demonstrated time and again to be effectively nil. We pour our money in, the EU decide how it's to be spent and give a little bit of it back to spend in the way we're told.

None of us wanted to be part of some European superstate or social experiment, we were joined up without consent on the basis of deliberate lies - the sooner we get out and leave the rest of them to their unsustainable meltdown, the better. Nobody is suddenly going to stop trading with us, they need our business every bit as much as we need theirs.