EU, impartial facts. Where to find

[M-Power]

Re:

Agree and it's been an informed reasoned and civilised debate on both sides I still think IN will win somehow, as when push comes to shove people will be too terrified to vote otherwise, with accusations that Brexit will result in the demise of Western Civilisation

This crap weather is a pita. Was really getting back into riding but now the trails are all churned up :shock:

 

[dyna-ti]

Apparently, if the UK leaves Europe, there will be more slippery roots and churned up trails :shock:

 

[highlandsflyer]

Re:

I guess the depends on how far north we paddle our own canoe.

 

[bm0p700f]

Maybe reform of the planning laws as I said post war we managed it requires political will something that is lacking at present hence we have this referendum and people feel angry enough to start swinging the wrecking ball.

Also brexit are probably going to claim that leaving the EU means we get to control the weather we import. Remain say that is silly and stay in means we get to export our weather freely.

that is what I think of both campaigns. They miss the point entirely.

 

[firedfromthecircus]

Also brexit are probably going to claim that leaving the EU means we get to control the weather we import. Remain say that is silly and stay in means we get to export our weather freely.

that is what I think of both campaigns. They miss the point entirely.

Most of what both sides are saying will happen if we leave is pure conjecture. No-one really knows what will happen to the economy. No-one really knows how badly the EU will react to what is quite clearly a snub. They would prefer us to remain as it make the whole EU stronger, but let's be absolutely clear, they don't need us. They may well decide to take a hit just to prove a point. Again though, that is just pure conjecture.
We can't be certain that the longest period of peace in European history is down to the EU. It might just be because everyone has been really peaceful feeling the last 70 years. :facepalm:
Again, conjecture.
One thing we do know is that if we remain things will stay much the same.

So it really comes down to an ideological position. Do you favour better co-operation amongst the peoples of the world to the betterment of all, or isolationism, a them against us attitude that is reminiscent of the empire builders of the past?

I prefer the first idea. That's why I'll be voting remain.

Incidentally, for those who complain about the money we send to the EU. We spend about 12 times more in subsidies for the banks every year than we send to the EU. You know, those bankers who have everybodys best interests at heart. :roll:

 

[bm0p700f]

Ideology always gets in the way of good policy. However the public seems to elect people with ego's and ideology over those more nuanced. Shame really. I mean a few people elect boris Jonhson and he gets to set the tone of the political debate in the U.K. I never voted for him and I can't and yet he has power over me. And the brexit lot complain about a lack of democracy in the EU.

 

[technodup]

One thing we do know is that if we remain things will stay much the same.

Is that your crystal ball working?

We have absolutely no idea what will happen to the EU, whichever way we vote.

So it really comes down to an ideological position. Do you favour better co-operation amongst the peoples of the world to the betterment of all, or isolationism, a them against us attitude that is reminiscent of the empire builders of the past?

But erm, most of the 'peoples of the world' aren't in the EU...? If anything we'd be remaining in a club which specifically excludes most of the world. You could call it isolationist...

And nobody's suggesting we don't cooperate anyway. We cooperated before, we'll cooperate after. But we don't require the same passports, the same currency or the same army to cooperate on emissions reduction (for example). There are scores of world organisations we are members of which involve cooperation and diplomacy to achieve shared goals. We cooperate with the US most famously. We don't share a parliament with them. This is a completely bollocks argument.

 

[bm0p700f]

we don't have the same passports, currency or army (in fact there is no EU army and there wont be it is one of those pipe dreams that will be vetoed by France and Britain) with other EU states though.

Co-operation happens at a deeper level on more fronts with the EU member states than it does with the US which is more on intelligence and military matters. We don't have a single market with the US or have a common arrest warrant with them either. The US is super power and gets to dictate terms it is not an equal relationship except on intelligence on which we have almost equal capability.

The arguments go round in circles the same thing are seem by in voters and leave voters differently in fact we are talking different languages it seems.

 

[al-onestare]

How about some more analysis? Today's FT has some interesting data.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/32414e3e-2804 ... z4BZ6Ldn4k

If we take this at face value (and yes, we'll probably end up arguing it's merits) it pretty much sums up this thread and it's original intent: finding impartial, actual facts is far too hard to find, thanks to too many vest interested and agenda's not least our politicians and media outlets. Just one example, someone previously commented about how the current "issues" today are impacting the young, the graduates in terms of jobs, competition, pricing (housing, etc). Here, they actually appear to be supportive of the EU and I'm not surprised by that based on my experiences and interactions.

I can't deny that bottom group makes me feel proper sad.

 

[firedfromthecircus]

I can't deny that bottom group makes me feel proper sad.

Poor folk, old folk and stupid folk. Sounds about right. :facepalm: