Early 50s La Gazelle - Eau-de-Nil 🛠️ The Merlot Aftermath 🍷

[Woz]

Your three arm crank has a different maybe early Stronglight stamp so maybe originally for a single ring. The 54 & 55 cranks in the 58 catalogue states compatible with both single and double rings so probably a greater distance from the centre of the cotter pin to face of the spider. Need the distance on a 54 or 55 to check against yours, a message to the seller on eBay Spacers on the three arms will work but finding longer bolts could prove tricky

I swear I have cried blood from my eye balls over this. There is most certainly a specification change of these cranks over time exactly like you say, and the few photographs of original builds seem to confirm this. It's hard trusting some sellers who cobble anything together.

Basically looks like they widened the drive side part that sits on the axle - the crank I have the cotter pin sits half way between the spider and edge, but some I see there is a slightly greater distance to the left (inboard DS) towards the spider.

I bombed the other @Guinessisgoodforyou thread to try understand more:

https://www.retrobike.co.uk/threads...andonneurs-commuters-town.451394/post-3419897

I still don't have the best solution, but I can't help again think this bike is very transitional in the four speed era - there's a step in the 3 speed mono-vitesse up front and the top end racer boys of the day were enjoying 5 speed freewheels with a wider rear spacing. The expertise in building and what was available must have been a bit of nightmare too for the original constructures.



.... barely enough room for a chain never mind a front mech too.

Thanks for your support and input again @vcballbat too - virtual drink token for you

 

[vcballbat]

The difference seems to be the thickness of the ring with the Huret outer ring flush with the back of the spider, sorry not much help but found a bit of chat on Dave's blog

http://davesbikeblog.squarespace.com/blog/2007/6/24/suicide-shifters.html

 

[Guinessisgoodforyou]

I swear I have cried blood from my eye balls over this. There is most certainly a specification change of these cranks over time exactly like you say, and the few photographs of original builds seem to confirm this. It's hard trusting some sellers who cobble anything together.

Basically looks like they widened the drive side part that sits on the axle - the crank I have the cotter pin sits half way between the spider and edge, but some I see there is a slightly greater distance to the left (inboard DS) towards the spider.

I bombed the other @Guinessisgoodforyou thread to try understand more:

https://www.retrobike.co.uk/threads...andonneurs-commuters-town.451394/post-3419897

I still don't have the best solution, but I can't help again think this bike is very transitional in the four speed era - there's a step in the 3 speed mono-vitesse up front and the top end racer boys of the day were enjoying 5 speed freewheels with a wider rear spacing. The expertise in building and what was available must have been a bit of nightmare too for the original constructures.

View attachment 744287

.... barely enough room for a chain never mind a front mech too.

Thanks for your support and input again @vcballbat too - virtual drink token for you

@Woz Are you sorted now?

 

[Woz]

@Woz Are you sorted now?

Not yet. The options are in best order:

1) Replacement Huret ring. There's one for sale at a daft 100 € which I won't buy.
2) A suitable double ring replacement for the entire Huret. I've got a few options but not many.
- Newer low end Simplex or the relatively unheard of Liftel or Solida could work. Something very early 1960s.
3) A replacement period crank and use the Simplex rings.
- An older Durax, Duprat or Nervar crank set seem to marry well with the Simplex rings looking at photos.
- A Stronglight crank built for a double like mentioned above.

I've successfully mounted the Simplex rings on a 1978 Peugeot crank from the 10 speed era, the DS crank had to be bored out a little at the end to fit on the Torevess axle which tapers ever so slightly from the fixed cup. I then hit a snag over cotter-pins* (a royal pain, but could be solved). Everything cleared fine and the chain line looked totally spot on. I just don't like the look of the crank but it's an option. I'm not too fond of spacers to be honest.

I'm constantly scanning for an alternative complete chainset set-up because then I would assume it all fits together and works; another donor bike could be interesting. Of course I could sack the whole lot off, run with either a single ring or upgrade to square taper. * I'll make a specific post about this.

 

[vcballbat]

Not yet. The options are in best order:

1) Replacement Huret ring. There's one for sale at a daft 100 € which I won't buy.
2) A suitable double ring replacement for the entire Huret. I've got a few options but not many.
- Newer low end Simplex or the relatively unheard of Liftel or Solida could work. Something very early 1960s.
3) A replacement period crank and use the Simplex rings.
- An older Durax, Duprat or Nervar crank set seem to marry well with the Simplex rings looking at photos.
- A Stronglight crank built for a double like mentioned above.

I've successfully mounted the Simplex rings on a 1978 Peugeot crank from the 10 speed era, the DS crank had to be bored out a little at the end to fit on the Torevess axle which tapers ever so slightly from the fixed cup. I then hit a snag over cotter-pins* (a royal pain, but could be solved). Everything cleared fine and the chain line looked totally spot on. I just don't like the look of the crank but it's an option. I'm not too fond of spacers to be honest.

I'm constantly scanning for an alternative complete chainset set-up because then I would assume it all fits together and works; another donor bike could be interesting. Of course I could sack the whole lot off, run with either a single ring or upgrade to square taper. * I'll make a specific post about this.

Number 1 plan B .... find a local welding and fabrication workshop and have the ring Mig or Tig welded

 

[Woz]

Update to this crank business for the nerds at the asylum. Feels like I've been a bit of a "myth buster" to be honest.

This is what I think / found:

- In this period early 50s, on a racing bike with cotter-pins, Stronglight was not ruling the roost. The Stronglight Competion - Simplex chainring combination is largely not heard-of and used, because as I found it doesn't work. This type of set-up with Eclair or Cyclo or Huret rings seems to be the default.



- At some point mid 50s, the Stronglight Competition crank was updated to fit the Simplex rings properly. It's hard to see, but the crank spider is driven further inboard compared to the above. I believe this was a short lived version (as mentioned seen in the 1958 catalogue), and they seem rare. I think by this time Stronglight was gaining a reputation having invented the square taper and more reliable aluminium being used. I see there was still a potential market though for people who were not trusting aluminium, but the racing boys I think had moved on.




- The almost de-facto cranks used with Simplex rings are DURAX - and not every DURAX crank works either in this new exciting period of front derailleurs. There is a superb photostream here by a chap on Tontonvelo that show's unrestored and restored bikes from this period and is a great resource to help understand what is going on. Here you can see the backside of an early DURAX crank machined out to clear the front derailleur and solve the Simplex chain ring problem - about 1947:



- Later, here you can clearly see a top-end DURAX crank specifically made with the Simplex chain rings in mind. I'm guessing this would have worked and have been used in the early 10 speed Tour de France rear derailleur era . Again these are rare, but it demonstrates how it worked.




For my own build, sourcing any of the above in reasonable condition (patina is OK) and reasonable prices has proven to be a pain. Three sellers have not got back to me about measurements or offers. These items are generally rare, and because they were intended for lightweight builds and racing many have not survived. I've also noted it is a real problem for others too, especially finding chain rings in smaller sizes more suitable to using these bikes for recreation riding.

I'm expecting a delivery of a late 1950s Solida single ring crankset next week. They were found on many high end Motobecances in single ring or double ring. Supply is much more plentiful since production went into the mid/late 60s too - it's worth a try at least. My hope / thinking is that since they were designed to clear chain guards and front derailleurs it may work out - it will be a tight fit with the Simplex rings but may just be enough.

 

[Woz]

Oh yeah - another point about the DURAX vs. Stronglight is that the latter certainly made cotter pin cranks with BSC pedal threads. I've found no evidence DURAX did. The DURAX set-up with Simplex rings probably had died out in France by the mid to late 50s at a guess (for serious racing).

 

[Woz]

Crankset & Pedals sorted

A little update. Finally took delivery of the 1950s Solida cranks, binned the worn single ring and fitted the Simplex rings. Everything a good fit except the bolts sticking out at the back of the Simplex rings were dangerously close to the DS chain stay. Decided to use a different axle 2.5mm longer each side. Then had a right fiddle slowly filing down cotter-pins since the seating depth was not the same as the old axle. Getting the slope angles right so the crank-arms would align was a bit of pain and I would have been lost without the cotter-pin press since a lot of trial and error was involved.

Just the other day got round to servicing the Lyotard pedals. The bearing surfaces are all good and are really smooth with no slop now.

A little oddity is that the locknut after the cone and locking washer is a strange ~11.15mm nut All ball bearings the same size 3.969 mm (5/32″), 11 on the inboard crank side, and 9 on the outboard side.

 

[Woz]

A little additional note about cotter-pins, and more specifically French cotter-pins. St Sheldon has simplified this part on his section about French bikes and it is far more complex. From what I could gather, the last manufacturer / supplier of various small bike parts (including other things) was Algi - and in this 2011 catalogue there is a large range. Worth noting too cotter-pins were used on Solex and Mobylettes so use is fairly widespread.

https://www.yumpu.com/fr/document/read/10430475/catalogue-tarif-2010-2011-composants-2-roues-algi

There are seven types listed here that are machined, and three (8, 9 and 10) that are not. Main diameter d3 at 9mm being apparently the most common.



Peugeot for a period also decided to have another, with a very skinny 6mm threaded section instead of 7mm. Now impossible to find, like many in the table above.




It's best to try and re-use a complete crankset set-up including cotter-pins if you can.

During all this wrenching, I did say to myself if it was worth the hassle and only decided to pursue the filing exercise from an experience point of view and keeping the bike more-or-less how it was meant to be originally. If the bike was say heading closer into the 60s I would have sacked the whole lot off and gone for square taper.

 

[Guinessisgoodforyou]

A little additional note about cotter-pins, and more specifically French cotter-pins. St Sheldon has simplified this part on his section about French bikes and it is far more complex. From what I could gather, the last manufacturer / supplier of various small bike parts (including other things) was Algi - and in this 2011 catalogue there is a large range. Worth noting too cotter-pins were used on Solex and Mobylettes so use is fairly widespread.

https://www.yumpu.com/fr/document/read/10430475/catalogue-tarif-2010-2011-composants-2-roues-algi

There are seven types listed here that are machined, and three (8, 9 and 10) that are not. Main diameter d3 at 9mm being apparently the most common.

View attachment 752386

Peugeot for a period also decided to have another, with a very skinny 6mm threaded section instead of 7mm. Now impossible to find, like many in the table above.

View attachment 752391


It's best to try and re-use a complete crankset set-up including cotter-pins if you can.

During all this wrenching, I did say to myself if it was worth the hassle and only decided to pursue the filing exercise from an experience point of view and keeping the bike more-or-less how it was meant to be originally. If the bike was say heading closer into the 60s I would have sacked the whole lot off and gone for square taper.

Are we there yet?