drivetrain retro/modern equivalents and diminishing returns

[Chopper the ex Copper]

Re: drivetrain retro/modern equivalents and diminishing retu

Found it. MBR, June 2010, page 33. I'm a subscriber so I'll try and locate the issue online and link to it or upload it

 

[NeilM]

Re: drivetrain retro/modern equivalents and diminishing retu

Not really m900 fault but an aftermarket bolt. Originals where steel.

You make my point perfectly. I paid good money for the mech and ran it for many miles over all sorts of terrain, but because a previous owner had wanted to save a fraction of a gram at some point the mech let go and is no more. Had it been a modern mech, it would not have mattered a toss, as it is I now have an expensive bag of XTR parts (yes I did rebuild it, no it does not work), and a rare mech is now slightly more rare.

If a bike is built to be ridden, and all my bikes are, then it is worth considering modern parts.

 

[ultrazenith]

Re: drivetrain retro/modern equivalents and diminishing retu

Lots of great answers and information being posted here - thanks guys. And well done for noticing my accidental transposition of STX and Deore

I'm a big fan of modern running gear on retro frames as long as the finished bike looks right.

I tend to use SRAM rather than Shimano, mainly because I don't like the look of the modern Shimano cranks.

I use modern gear for a number of reasons, mostly practical, as there are times when finding exactly the right XTR rear mech can be a time consuming chore, and you cannot be sure of the quality / reliability of a 20 year old mech, even after paying serious money for one.

I blew up a M901 XTR rear mech a while ago. The blow up was caused by an alloy jockey wheel axle and was terminal. Had I been using an X9 mech then there would now still be one more M901 in the world, and I could have got a replacement mech on line that day.

There are builds where age related parts are best, but most frames look good and ride well with modern running gear.

Ignoring the new disc brakes of course, how much better would you say modern groupsets are compared to mid-late 90s kit?

 

[legrandefromage]

Re: drivetrain retro/modern equivalents and diminishing retu

Lots of great answers and information being posted here - thanks guys. And well done for noticing my accidental transposition of STX and Deore

I'm a big fan of modern running gear on retro frames as long as the finished bike looks right.

I tend to use SRAM rather than Shimano, mainly because I don't like the look of the modern Shimano cranks.

I use modern gear for a number of reasons, mostly practical, as there are times when finding exactly the right XTR rear mech can be a time consuming chore, and you cannot be sure of the quality / reliability of a 20 year old mech, even after paying serious money for one.

I blew up a M901 XTR rear mech a while ago. The blow up was caused by an alloy jockey wheel axle and was terminal. Had I been using an X9 mech then there would now still be one more M901 in the world, and I could have got a replacement mech on line that day.

There are builds where age related parts are best, but most frames look good and ride well with modern running gear.

Ignoring the new disc brakes of course, how much better would you say modern groupsets are compared to mid-late 90s kit?

They are no different in function and not really any better in performance.

You can only re-invent a derailleur so many times. As mentioned before, all the Shimano rear mechs from around 1986 to 2009 will quite happily interchange with each other. A '9spd' mech will work just as well in a 7spd system as 7spd mech does with nine. Anything currently marketed as 8 or 9spd compatible can also be used.

Shifters - 'felt' right from about 1994 onwards, so almost 20 years of the same thing over and over again. Early STi had a bit of a bad reputation because of the grease used. This hardened into a cheese like substance and buggered the ratchet mechanisms. A quick soak and they work again for another 20 years...

The Cassette hasnt really changed since the 7spd Shimano freewheel came about. Its still ramped to aid shifting and again, you can lob a brand new 8spd cassette on a 17 year old freehub and off you go.

Chains are no better, you get what you pay for - some snap sooner than others, some seem to last 5 mins. Exactly the same as 20 years ago. SACHS chains seemed to last ages over Shimano's offerings.

Chainsets - still no better than before, still get chain suck and odd wear. BB's has pages of arguments over what method is better as some external BBs seem to last a couple of rides where another lasts a lot longer. Old sealed Shimano BB's either lasted a week or ten years. Old cup and cone BBS could be sealed for decades and never wear out whereas some cheap stuff would loosen after 5 minutes (literally!)

Hubs are not really much different - bigger bearing area with larger axles but how often do you actually wear something like that out?

Headsets, again, they went bigger with reports of premature wear - same as god knows how long ago. Some headsets can be fit and forget, others....!

The whole thing is just trying to keep itself 'fresh' for a dwindling market. If you are reasonably skilled with an allen key and a cassette removal tool, you'll be able to keep a bike going for as long as cassettes and chains are available.

Its up to you to decide what you want - a lot of 'old' stuff can still be used and serviced as if it was released yesterday - I was running 'old' gear commuting 30 miles a day through the winter. The cassette and chain were kept clean and are still usable whereas the neighbours kids bike has simply fallen apart after a year because it wasnt looked after.

Once you go into the dizzy realm of 10 spd and 1:1 shifting, it all gets a bit messy. I am looking at a 10spd SLX cassette mated to a triple chainset and it looks mad...

But, hey, thats what the marketing folk think we all want so thats what the must have should be.

 

[FluffyChicken]

Re: drivetrain retro/modern equivalents and diminishing retu

In 2010 Shimano formally announced XTR was no longer to be the standalone racing groupset, and was being rationalized and brought into the mainstream mountain bike family as the top ranking 'set. Shimano themselves said that, their words, not my interpretation. How bike manufacturers and the public viewed XTR is something else entirely, but Shimmy intended for competition only until 2010.

I keep all my MBRs so I'll still have the article somewhere.

Sounds like a marketing exercise to get the general public to buy into it.
They quite clearly made it the end MTB groupset when they brought it out, keeping under the MTB tags and MTB charts.
If they played it up on the racing credentials in the M952 era then so be it but that's not where it started.

XT was the racing group until they polished it up and called it XTR then demoted it in the M737 utility look. (Yes 'R' Stands for Race but they clearly state in 1992 under new products 'Shimano XTR gives the off-road racer or mountain bike enthusiast the ultimate in state of the art off-road performance.)

It's just what happens when it's the Top of the Groupset, you aim to get it if you race with it.
It still is the 'Racing Group' now. Top teams will race with it, just like before. Carbon, Ti, Weight reduction, new ideas... all racing principle just like before.

All marketing ploy.

It's Original Tagline was Shimano XTR 'The Ultimate In off-road components systems' with M900 by the way.

Where in this M910 setup does it state 'For Racing Only'
http://www.retrobike.co.uk/gallery2/v/M ... ewsIndex=1

It's sits at much the same position as Dura-Ace, top of the group so the choice for the 'racing' people.

ok so now there are about 3 or 4 variants of XTR it's a little more messy.
anyway, marketing. Stuffs just the same and enough ramblings...

---

To OP, you can probably pick up SLX or XT for not so much as a groupset.
It works and works nicely, sometimes it just doesn't go on the bike.
Been using M770 (2010 era) XT and SLX and even the LX of that year on my bikes. The V-brakes where very nice simple.. look for 770/580 style depending on black or silver choice and the 770 brake levers look very similar to the older 739 but with better adjusters.

Newer version don't look quite as good, even if they work the same. But that's my opinion. They've been shifter to Trekking, which is pretty much RetroBikes setup anyway

 

[xerxes]

Re: drivetrain retro/modern equivalents and diminishing retu

They are no different in function and not really any better in performance.

I'd go along with that, I have a 23 year old Deore II MT62 mech on my older bike, I put some new jocky wheels in it about 5 years ago and it works just as well as the 2 year old XT M772 shadow mech on my modern bike, albeit the old mech is operated with a thumb shifter and the new one with a trigger shifter, or whatever they're called. I've never actually weighed them, but I don't think there's much difference in weight either.

The knackered old Shimano Tourney on my "shopping" bike works just fine as well, although that does weigh about as much as a house brick.

 

[ultrazenith]

Re: drivetrain retro/modern equivalents and diminishing retu

It's reassuring to know that my mid 90s parts are no worse than the latest SLX, XT etc. Cool.

Something I've avoided until now is the cantis / v brakes vs disc brake comparison. My prejudices tell me in dry conditions, properly set up canti or V brakes will not be noticeably less effective than disc brakes. To come to this hypothesis, I reasoned that using cantis or v's in dry conditions one can pull a skid or endo almost instantly upon grabbing a hand-full of brake lever hard enough, which means you've over-done the braking. Only in wet conditions I'd expect the disc brakes to be significantly better. Am I right or am I wrong?

 

[xerxes]

Re: drivetrain retro/modern equivalents and diminishing retu

I have Vs on my older bike and discs on my newer one and I can't say I notice a huge difference. Having said that, my disc brakes are Avid Juicy 3, which are not the best, with 160mm rotors. I dare say that top of the line 4 pot callipers and big rotors, like on some of the downhill bikes, are significantly more powerful.

The Juicy 3s are the next thing I'd like to change on my newer bike. I don't really need 4 pot, downhill power, but brakes that don't leak from the reservoir cover would be nice. :x I was thinking maybe Shimano SLX or XT.

 

[mattrixdesign2]

Re: drivetrain retro/modern equivalents and diminishing retu

No mention of LX/DX? Did DX get dropped when XTR arrived, I used to really like DX, a posher metalic version of LX, always looked cool.

Currently running XT on my modern Cube, and its faultless, had modern Deore on my previous bike and that was also reliable, but heavier, good value and "proper kit".

On my soon to road worthy winter commute its old LX seems OK, but would be happy when the brakes/shifters die.

 

[Osella]

Re: drivetrain retro/modern equivalents and diminishing retu

LX is pretty much now SLX - and it's worth pointing out that there is also Saint in fully 7/8/9sp-compatible shifters and mechs. Saint is intended for 'downhill' but then again, so were suspension forks and Disc brakes once...

As regards the Disc vs V's, etc.. discussion, it all comes down to how you ride & where you ride.
If the ground's wet or it's pissing it down, some disc pads will not shift the water between them & the rotor & shriek horribly - however.. compared to any set of V's or even Maguras (don't forget them!) they do have the very real advantage that anything on the rim will not affect your braking.
I was using some '00 Maguras in the mud and kept having to remember to clean the rims before I needed to brake. In the dry and stopping in a 'normal' distance you won't notice much, but as soon as the going gets muddy/wet, or you really need an emergency stop, Discs WILL pull you up shorter and with more control*.

Discs are however heavier in general, more expensive, require specific hubs, disc mounts etc.. As for SLX, I really wouldn't bother - go for Deore, they are spot-on!
And for light weight, try Hygia, they are quite simply brilliant..

*provided, as with any rim brake that you have decent pads and a well set-up brake, and no fade. And anyone who says you can't modulate your braking with discs quite simply shouldn't be allowed on a bike.