Claud Butler - Carpenter - Vintage Bike - Wheel Help

[WhtANightmare]

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Well mini update, managed found a front wheel to test to put into the bikes. Fits fine in the carpenter, but whilst it fits the frame of the Claud butler, the front brake caliper is too long for the 27 1/4 rim (although a rear wheel at 27 1/4 fits fine with the brakes in line with the rim.

I'm assuming that means I need to find a new brake caliper with a shorter reach to fit to the Claud butler, if anyone has any suggestions for what to search for online that would be hugely appreciated. The current claiper is a GB hiduminium side pull caliper, I wonder if the bike was originally set up for 26 Inch wheels?

Regards,

Mark

 

[Jonny69]

Two very nice bikes. Also, VERY original with what look like components that could be what came with the bikes originally. The frames look like they're in excellent condition given their age. This is very rare to see.

Wheels. Back in the day you generally had 'sprint' rims which are the ones with the glued on tyres. We call them tubulars (or tubs) these days, you can still get them as they're used in racing and they're the same size as back then. The other size were 27 x 1-1/4" clinchers, which are slightly bigger diameter. Clinchers are the ones you put on with tyre levers. As you've noticed, the brakes often don't reach between both sizes.

Modern road bike tyres are called '700c' clinchers and the rims are actually the same diameter as old sprints, so the brake block is in the same position. Modern wheel axles are metric and are a slightly bigger diameter than the old Imperial ones. If you use a modern wheel in an old frame, DO NOT file the dropouts, ALWAYS file the hub axles. You're talking about a 70 year old handbuilt frame, a survivor which is only original once, vs basically a cheap modern wheel, probably built in China, which is effectively disposable in comparison.

Just my opinion, but because of the originality of these two bikes, I'd be inclined to find a bike shop who can re-spoke the original wheels (or watch some youtube videos and have a go yourself as it's not that difficult). Everything just looks like it needs a clean, re-lube and a tighten. Learn how to service the bearings yourself as they'll only need re-greasing and tightening up. Learn how to tape some new tubs on. Then they'll both be good to go.

 

[WhtANightmare]

Two very nice bikes. Also, VERY original with what look like components that could be what came with the bikes originally. The frames look like they're in excellent condition given their age. This is very rare to see.

Wheels. Back in the day you generally had 'sprint' rims which are the ones with the glued on tyres. We call them tubulars (or tubs) these days, you can still get them as they're used in racing and they're the same size as back then. The other size were 27 x 1-1/4" clinchers, which are slightly bigger diameter. Clinchers are the ones you put on with tyre levers. As you've noticed, the brakes often don't reach between both sizes.

Modern road bike tyres are called '700c' clinchers and the rims are actually the same diameter as old sprints, so the brake block is in the same position. Modern wheel axles are metric and are a slightly bigger diameter than the old Imperial ones. If you use a modern wheel in an old frame, DO NOT file the dropouts, ALWAYS file the hub axles. You're talking about a 70 year old handbuilt frame, a survivor which is only original once, vs basically a cheap modern wheel, probably built in China, which is effectively disposable in comparison.

Just my opinion, but because of the originality of these two bikes, I'd be inclined to find a bike shop who can re-spoke the original wheels (or watch some youtube videos and have a go yourself as it's not that difficult). Everything just looks like it needs a clean, re-lube and a tighten. Learn how to service the bearings yourself as they'll only need re-greasing and tightening up. Learn how to tape some new tubs on. Then they'll both be good to go.

Hi Jonny,

Thank you for the breakdown of all the wheel types/sizes etc, this was incredibly confusing topic when i first started to look at tidying up these bikes.

I think the only thing i have found odd is that the wheel sizes that my wifes grandad had were all 27 1/4, i have tried both of the front wheels he had (both tubular) on the Claud Butler and the GB Hiduminium caliper on the front is the only caliper that the pads can't reach the rim (with the calipers being too long) the rear caliper fits both the tubular and clincher wheels he had (again all 27 1/4 rims). Having known the man in his later years it wouldn't surprise me if he just didn't use a front break so it didn't both him lol.

Whilst i'd like to keep it as original as possible, i'd like to make sure the front brake works, as such i assume my main option would be to replace the front caliper for a shorter reach side pull? I'll send a picture later tonight when i get home which shows just how far off the caliper is from reaching one of his standard front wheels.

If i did end up needing to get a replacement caliper for the front, are there any particular brands/models which people feel would be best for this style of bike and to accommodate the 27 1/4 rims?

Thanks again, Mark

 

[Guinessisgoodforyou]

27" x 1 1/4" in metric is 630 x 32
700c is 622 x whatever in mm
26" x 1 1/4" is 597 x 32
4mm difference in radius between 27" and 700c. Don't file the spindles or frame, use the right parts. The GB calipers I've used had long enough slots to cope with the rim difference.

Edit put the wheels you want to use in the bike, measure from the centre of the brake mounting hole to the centre of the rim this will give you the brake drop. Hope this helps.

Something like this.

GB COUREUR HIDUMINIUM ALLOY VINTAGE BICYCLE BRAKE CALIPERS, 1950s (2) | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for GB COUREUR HIDUMINIUM ALLOY VINTAGE BICYCLE BRAKE CALIPERS, 1950s (2) at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products.

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[WhtANightmare]

27" x 1 1/4" in metric is 630 x 32
700c is 622 x whatever in mm
26" x 1 1/4" is 590 x 32
4mm difference in radius between 27" and 700c. Don't file the spindles or frame, use the right parts. The GB calipers I've used had long enough slots to cope with the rim difference.

Edit put the wheels you want to use in the bike, measure from the centre of the brake mounting hole to the centre of the rim this will give you the brake drop. Hope this helps.

Something like this.

GB COUREUR HIDUMINIUM ALLOY VINTAGE BICYCLE BRAKE CALIPERS, 1950s (2) | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for GB COUREUR HIDUMINIUM ALLOY VINTAGE BICYCLE BRAKE CALIPERS, 1950s (2) at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products.

www.ebay.co.uk

Thanks Guinness,

I am defintely not wanting to file anything. I just found it odd that it was only the front brake caliper on the Claud that seemed to be too long for 27 x 1 1/4 wheels. as such seems like a need a shorter reach variant of the caliper in order for the brake pads to sit on the rim. The difference is much more i expected (the brake pads moved all the way to the top of the caliper adjustment still are no where near the rim) which would indicate is is around the difference between a 27 x 1 1.4 and 26 x 1 1/4 wheel. As all the wheels i have are the 27 inch i'll have to measure the distance as suggested and find a caliper that matches the required drop.

i'll check out the ebay link you put in your reply too to see if it mentions the reach of the calipers too for reference.

 

[Woz]

Just a thought about the CB, because this all sounds a little weird to be honest. Check that the arm length / caliper drop between the front and rear brake is the same. It may be they are not the same and were swapped about at some point for some reason. It's not difficult to swap arms and the spindle around and may have been done at some point.

Just sounds odd to me that buying a short reach caliper is a solution to something that all seems original and would have worked

 

[WhtANightmare]

Just a thought about the CB, because this all sounds a little weird to be honest. Check that the arm length / caliper drop between the front and rear brake is the same. It may be they are not the same and were swapped about at some point for some reason. It's not difficult to swap arms and the spindle around and may have been done at some point.

Just sounds odd to me that buying a short reach caliper is a solution to something that all seems original and would have worked

Cheers, i'll measure the caliper arm lengths when i get home to see if they are the same or different. I'll chuck a front wheel back onto the bike too and measure how far off the brake pad is from the rim. As you say all seems a bit of a weird one considering all the other caliper arms seem to be the right length.

 

[Woz]

I've heard plenty of times buying longer reach calipers so older frames built for 27 x 1 1/4 can use 700C modern clincher rims, but that's only during a modernisation.

If there's one thing the bike industry is good at, it's messing around with wheel sizes and confusing the living daylights out of people

 

[WhtANightmare]

So here is the same front wheel in both bikes. As you can see the wheel fits fine in the carpenter with plenty of adjustment up and down to get the break pads centred appropriately. On the Claud butler the brake pad sits fully below the rim and this is with the brake pad at its highest point on the caliper mount. The rear wheel for the Claud butler is the same size rim yet the rear caliper fits perfectly.

The measurement from the mounting nut of the Claud butler caliper to the centre of the rim is roughly 48mm. The calipers are a bit lopsided with one side a touch higher than the other.

 

[Guinessisgoodforyou]

Looking at the gap between the rim and fork crown the Claud was built for 26" x 1 1/4" wheels, your measurements confirm this. Not enough room for 27" inc tyre and mudguard, might squeeze 700s with guards in.