a typical example of the poor attitude towards cyclists

[channa]

other people or things use the road in a manner that could be dangerous if a motorist wants to get past in a hurry.

How do I cope??

Last week there was a whole herd of sheep in the road on my way to work.

It is the nature of cycling that any group ride bunches up now and again and ends up several abreast for a bit. .

Some interesting comments and something I have thought about for a long time.

The thread title uses attitude, and you use the term How do I cope ?

And that seems to be the basic problem of all road users irrespective of what is their chosen mode of transport.

When I drive my motor caravan, how do others cope with my presence ?
How do they cope with mine ? When I am travelling on a 40 mph stretch of road, another road user emerging from a side street,may cope with my oncoming speed differently, New driver? Experienced ? , Elderly ?

Do I drop my speed to say 35 mph to make life easier to cope ?

Turning left, How do I cope with a cyclist/ motorcyclist nipping up the inside. How do they cope if I cant see them or I forget to check my mirror?

So this then leads to attitude as part of my roadcraft should I not be consistantly evaluating the potential impact of my driving on others ability to cope ?

Of course , It stands to reason if I maintain this approach should I be in a car, van ,truck, on a Motorcycle or cycle...I become safer and considerate allround.

I am far from negative towards cyclists or for that matter TT's etc, But until such time as people start to understand some of the points I am labouring we will make no progress any of us irrespective of our mode of transport.

Channa

 

[pigman]

But lots of other people or things use the road in a manner that could be dangerous if a motorist wants to get past in a hurry.

Every Wednesday I drive past a football stadium. Sometimes there are people all over the road as the ground empties! How do I cope??

mmm .. dont get me started. a few years ago, sheffield repeatedly hosted a stage finish for the tour of britain. The local media was full of complaints about how people couldnt get through the city centre, esp at home time. The amount of business for the local economy was phenominal, which is why we hosted it. however every week, sometimes more, we have one end of town or the other snarled up with football traffic, diversions, illegal and inconsiderate parking etc (not to mention the cost of all the policing) and no one complains. GRRR

It is the nature of cycling that any group ride bunches up now and again and ends up several abreast for a bit. It is not the army, we can't all stay in a perfect line.

its a toughie this. Our clubruns sometimes attract thirty riders (15 ave). Weve discussed how to avoid bunching up and just cant seem to get it right, not for want of trying. Hilly terrain makes things worse, as does the confidence of riders in front of you (we have a high beginners recruitment number). Wind also has an effect. In short, were at a loss how to avoid it, but very conscious of the possible bad PR.

 

[lewis1641]

just going back to tintin's comment. there are a lot of motorists behing bars because they have caused death or serious injury from a driving incident.

there is a harrowing diary online somewhere about a honda driver who wasnt in his mind driving dangerously but everything went wrong and he hit a motorcyclist. he went from a sunday drive to prison.

reading that was a huge wake up call for me.

i have never been a boy racer but have enjoyed spiritted driving every now and again. its always a great feeling to nail the golf on a nice somers day. the thought of doing that, getting it wrong and going to prison has had a huge affect on me, hence the reason i do track days for speed kicks now and keep it sensible on the road.

even if the public dont care for the safety of others, most care for their own liberty. i do think drivers should be far more aware of the concequences of their actions than they are.

it might not be your "fault" but your moments lack of concentration could put you in prison, even if you dont care about the person you have put in a box.

as for time trials, there is a regular one near barton on humber which i have driven past/through/whatever a number of times. i guess its not a huge event but i have always been suprised at how well behaved the cyclists are.

i dont know how we can bring the public round to our way of thinking.

"this isnt justice" is such an inappropriate headlise. i can see the lady's point but at the end of the day a guy is dead.

rant over

 

[Easy_Rider]

We should go back to the old Sunday trading laws and then have Sundays back to leasure as they always used to be so people don't get stressed being in a hurry going here n there

 

[retrojon]

The hurry was there, because if she were in no hurry she would not need to pass and could just as happily follow behind until they sorted themselves out.


Anyway, focusing on the content of the letter...

"This isn't justice"
Yes it is. Found guilty by a jury.
It would have been an injustice if she was not found guilty.

The author then goies on to call anyone in a TT a "complete and utter menace". Perhaps that comment can fall into your extreme and polarised categories.

Then some stuff about riding head down (do people still do that? would think the pointy hat would cause a bit of drag if you did that.) Looking at pedals and wheels whilst swerving across the carriageway.
Doesn't sound like a very sensible way to ride a TT, but I am open to the idea that she may have encountered someone with their head down, looking at their pedals and wheels whilst swerving around the carriageway.

Next we have the social event paragraph. With all the will in the world, when you get a bunch of cyclists they sometimes bunch up. Are we still on the A1 here? I guess not. Are we still at a TT? Not sure.

Then she is not just amazed, but "absolutely amazed" that these events are allowed.
The course has passed a risk assessment and a traffic count for the time of the event. The police have been informed, warning signs have been put up.
It is a simple out and back, so any car would have to pass no more than about 10 cyclists. Other competitors are hopefully not warming up on the course. Perhaps they are in the big bunch blocking her car somewhere.

Then it is on to the won't be the last cyclist to die on the A1. Pretty safe bet that statement.

Then we have something about other road users not being allowed to use the road as a race track, which is incorrect.

Then we have some comments about sentencing that hasn't happened yet. We can all moan about that later.

 

[Neil]

i dont know how we can bring the public round to our way of thinking.

The public form opinions all the time - about the way people dress, their age, the type of car they drive, plenty of things.

Several people have posted to this thread about the same or similar things that the letter complained about. This wasn't the usual rant about cyclists being in the way, that they should stay on cylce paths, and not obstruct cars, it was about the focus of some cyclists. Now several others have commented about this, too - and if we're going to say that motorists need to consider their actions (rightly so) then it's not wrong to say that some of these cyclists need to have a think about their focus whilst cycling with traffic around.

That's not an unfair criticism.

We'll likely never convert much of the middle-England, Daily-Wail-reading-Victor-Meldrew-types that cyclists have a valid and legitimate place and role in traffic on the roads. But those that make valid complaints - just as the valid complaints we cyclists make - can be addressed, if we really care about empathy, and getting the receptive people (motorists, or otherwise) on side.

"this isnt justice" is such an inappropriate headlise. i can see the lady's point but at the end of the day a guy is dead.

Yes - the most important part of this, that we shouldn't lose sight of - whatever happened, somebody's son, somebody's husband, somebody's father, and somebody's friend lost their life.

Still, in all of this, given what I've read about the driver, I still can't rationalise prison as being the right thing for her. Punishment, I'm onboard with, fines, loss of license, community service, that sort of thing. I'm just far from convinced that prison is right for that sort of person, that's all.

 

[Neil]

The hurry was there, because if she were in no hurry she would not need to pass and could just as happily follow behind until they sorted themselves out.

That's just your inference.

There's no reason to assume anything other than she wanted to drive at a fairly normal pace to get wherever she was going - just because somebody wants to overtake cyclists or tractors, or whatever, doesn't mean that they're in some flaming rush.

And in terms of sorting themselves out, my experience of driving through such events is that these groups don't "sort themselves out" they just cycle in a group like that.

Anyway, focusing on the content of the letter...

"This isn't justice"
Yes it is. Found guilty by a jury.
It would have been an injustice if she was not found guilty.

I suspect nobody is arguing against the conviction. I think the letter was referring to the likelihood of prison.

The author then goies on to call anyone in a TT a "complete and utter menace". Perhaps that comment can fall into your extreme and polarised categories.

She didn't phrase it in that way - you introduced the word "anyone" there, that's why you couldn't quote it - and she did go on to explain her rationale.

Then some stuff about riding head down (do people still do that? would think the pointy hat would cause a bit of drag if you did that.)

The picture of the cyclist who was killed shows him looking to the region of his front hub - now that may just be a poorly timed example, but several other people have made similar comments about where some cyclists in time trials are focusing their attention...

Next we have the social event paragraph. With all the will in the world, when you get a bunch of cyclists they sometimes bunch up. Are we still on the A1 here? I guess not. Are we still at a TT? Not sure.

I saw it, many times, when I used to regularly (weekly) drive through a time trial event. So, it would appear have others, who've commented on here - are you suggesting I, the letter writing woman, and others who've made similar comments are simply inventing, or wrongly remembering?

Then she is not just amazed, but "absolutely amazed" that these events are allowed.

In fairness, because of the things she's cited as being significant compromises to the safety of all traffic, and probably because of the tragedies that have happened, and are perhaps still likely to happen.

It is a simple out and back, so any car would have to pass no more than about 10 cyclists.

I'm sorry, but that just doesn't square with my experience of regularly driving through time trial routes - many more than 10 cyclists.

 

[retrojon]

Her letter is full of extremes and weasel words, yet you pick me up for the anyone comment. Wierd that.

The way I read it is that she calls anyone in a TT a menace.

I also think it is a bit sick to jump on the death of someone to express an opinion that it is somehow partly the fault of the cyclist, organiser, or authorities for allowing the event.
There is nothing to suggest that he was treating the road with anything other than the respect it deserves.

 

[Neil]

Her letter is full of extremes and weasel words, yet you pick me up for the anyone comment. Wierd that.

Her letter just criticised some specific behaviours <shrug>

I picked you up on wrongly using an argument of extremes against a viewpoint that's expressed with reasonable rationale.

As I've said before, this wasn't the normal, anti-cycling rant - and that's where as cyclists, we should be careful not to wrongly stereotype this criticism in dealing with it.

The way I read it is that she calls anyone in a TT a menace.

Well that's not the way it's written.

I also think it is a bit sick to jump on the death of someone to express an opinion that it is somehow partly the fault of the cyclist, organiser, or authorities for allowing the event.

Cutting to the chase, what she was really saying was that combining some cyclists, whilst racing, and normal traffic, is a recipe for tragedy - I think that is fair comment, given my own experiences - and so do others who've contributed to this thread.

There is nothing to suggest that he was treating the road with anything other than the respect it deserves.

Fair point - no argument there.

 

[legrandefromage]

My last 2p

I know the road where this happened. It is a dual carriageway with plenty of space on the inside lane. The riders have always been well apart when we've been driving past and there are marshals on the roundabouts and fluorescent signs up warning drivers.

The highway code states you should give plenty of room when overtaking cyclists and slower vehicles. It doesnt matter if they are 'racing' or not, they have the right to be on that road until legislation states otherwise. Given the fact that traffic is very quiet on this section of road and that there are two wide lanes, they cannot be described as a 'complete and utter menace' I take issue with that.

'Near misses' are the drivers responsibility, she had visibility, brakes, steering and an accelerator to use to avoid these 'near misses' - blaming a cyclist is no excuse for inattentive driving.

I have never seen any 'groups of 4 or 5' riding along the A1 and even if they were, 2 abreast is within the law and they should be treated as if they were a large slow moving vehicle.

If she travelled regularly on the A1 during these events, then experience would have taught her what to expect when encountering future races/ events. Yes, a rider was killed on the A1, but that was on the A1 service road which runs parallel to the A1M between Alconbury and Peterborough, not on a dual carriageway.

My job means that I encounter young female drivers on a regular basis out on the road and the majority exhibit very poor road awareness, pulling out in front of vehicles, running red lights and so-on. Reading the description of the actual accident, there was negligence which has been delt with.