1960 Peugeot PX10... Gravster!

[zidortri]

Wheel building is a well worthy craft to learn.

Indeed - and I would certainly benefit from this as I have more than a dozen pair of rims and an equal numbers of hubs of all era and spoke count to assemble... From large flange FB hubs - for a late 50s PLX10, to more recent Campy Shamal/Electron hubs for my late 90s Bianchi Mercatone...

I guess I could start with this redishing job...

Even for 2+mm, if you bump the dropout spacing by moving the ds stay, that will cancel out the extra hub length & asymmetry

Do you mean the DS or the NDS?

After a first phase earlier today where I almost convinced myself to order a jig I pondered the idea of merely adding a washer on the other side as well - that is the NDS, to cancel the asymmetry resulting from the washer initially inserted on the DS...

 

[Guinessisgoodforyou]

Indeed - and I would certainly benefit from this as I have more than a dozen pair of rims and an equal numbers of hubs of all era and spoke count to assemble... From large flange FB hubs - for a late 50s PLX10, to more recent Campy Shamal/Electron hubs for my late 90s Bianchi Mercatone...

I guess I could start with this redishing job...



Do you mean the DS or the NDS?

After a first phase earlier today where I almost convinced myself to order a jig I pondered the idea of merely adding a washer on the other side as well - that is the NDS, to cancel the asymmetry resulting from the washer initially inserted on the DS...

If you have the axle length one washer each side will work if it fits the rear end.

 

[M_Chavez]

If it's 1mm washer, just fit it there and forget, imho. Even with 2mm it will work just as well, but I personally would be too anal to let that slide on my bike.
No guarantee that your wheel dish is that accurate - anything within 1mm is generally acceptable.

If you add 1mm to the ds axle, and you want to keep the rim in the same place, you'd need to cold set the ds stay by 1mm outwards. Otherwise, assuming that you don't cold set and your frame adjusts for the new length equally on ds and nds (not always the case), you'll have a 0.5mm dishing error. Double check me on this - I always get these things wrong, followed by a lot of swearing and having to re-do, but I think that's the correct offset direction.

Get into building your wheels - it's very satisfying [when you get it right].

 

[Woz]

1mm washer on the DS = +0.5mm re-dish towards the DS. That's probably about 1/3rd of a turn of a spoke at most.

That's theoretical; it assumes that both the DS and NDS stays spray equally apart +0.5mm each side.

Agree that these are very fine and in practice may not even be worth considering. Ideally of course you want your rim bang in the middle of the OLN, and the frame symmetric too. I tend to make sure all wheels are symmetric and the frame tracks reasonably well doing non-handed. Using the brake bridge can help see any off-center problems early. Looking how the rear tyre wears can also tell if something is a bit out of whack too.

Thing is, when we are dealing with these really old bikes and we don't know their full history there comes a point of "good enough = perfect" to quote @Nabeaquam The only thing we can assume (but no guarantees either) the higher up in the food bike chain you go you will be getting better precision and built within very tight tolerances.

 

[zidortri]

If you have the axle length one washer each side will work if it fits the rear end.

I think that should be the easiest way... I will check that.

 

[zidortri]

If it's 1mm washer, just fit it there and forget, imho.

That was my first intention until Guinessisgoodforyou raised the point of redishing... And that makes a lot of sense. Especially since the current washer is a relatively thicker than first thought external teeth lock washer - closer to 2mm-thick rather than 1mm...

If you add 1mm to the ds axle, and you want to keep the rim in the same place, you'd need to cold set the ds stay by 1mm outwards.

I would honestly prefer to avoid doing that... The rear stays have already been cold set to increase the rear dropout spacing by 10mm - from 120mm to 130mm.
And that job was performed by a professional frame builder - with all their tools... And expertise.
I love working on my bikes but there are things that fall beyond my skills...

Get into building your wheels - it's very satisfying [when you get it right]

That is probably the best option both for this bike and my (many) (future) projects... I would actually love to be able to build my own wheels - I have a lot of unconventional projects in mind... FB hubs on carbon rims for instance

 

[zidortri]

1mm washer on the DS = +0.5mm re-dish towards the DS.

Thanks for this. Actually it took me a few minutes to figure out why... But yes it makes perfect sense.
Initially my first instinct was to assume that 1mm washer on the DS would induce 1mm off-center and re-dish...

Ideally of course you want your rim bang in the middle of the OLN, and the frame symmetric too

That's the target... I was not really happy with the initial "washer-insertion-on-the-DS-only" option...

Using the brake bridge can help see any off-center problems

That's a great idea. I will remove the tyre and check where the center of the rim bed sits respective to the brake axle hole.

I tend to make sure all wheels are symmetric and the frame tracks reasonably well doing non-handed

And what happen if the frame doesn't track well and your hands are off the handlebar...

The only thing we can assume (but no guarantees either) the higher up in the food bike chain you go you will be getting better precision and built within very tight tolerances.

That's correct... And there seems to be no limit as to how we can do things better... I've been working on my old bikes for the last ten years and I keep discovering new tricks and more accurate and efficient solution every time...

 

[M_Chavez]

closer to 2mm-thick

Well, I'm with @Woz - it ain't rocket surgery. If you can make it roll, don't chase millimeters, leave that to rocket engine designers. So I keep my vote for 1 washer.

with all their tools

*cough* floorboard... *cough* string...And a good quality dropout alignment tool.

I hate to be the one to piss in your punch, but adding a 2-mm washer each side of the hub will do the following:

- Spread the 130mm rear to 134, which means that the dropouts will be angled away and not parallel to the washers. Therefore ruining all the good alignment work done by your frame builder.
A lot of people ride like that (shove 135mm hub into 130 spacing) but I say that's a much bigger bodge than using just 1 washer and forgetting about theoretical dishing error.

- You are currently assuming that the ds and nds dropouts will spread equally (each by 2mm outwards). In practice, ds is often weaker (due to the crimping for chainring clearance I believe) and ds moves by more than nds. The nds-ds ratio can be anything between 50-50 to an eyebrow-raising 10-90. So you can end up with ds moving out by 3mm and nds by 1mm, giving you exactly the same error as you'd get with just putting in one ds washer.

 

[Woz]

Well said @M_Chavez - while I've never had a serious go at cold setting myself, I can say bending and cutting up frames and forks for fun before taking them to the tip is great to understand better the materials we are wrenching on.

Personally, if I was going to go to the trouble of a professional re-dish it would be 132.5mm. I have an old CX / light tourer and it was like this from new deliberately so you could fit a road or MTB hub. Vertical drop-outs mind, so much easier.

 

[zidortri]

So I keep my vote for 1 washer.

For the time being that's exactly what I am going to do...
The overall wheel "looks" centered... I have made a series of measurements at the brake bridge level with my vernier and it seems that the rim is off-centered by 1mm.
As most of the intended usage for this bike will be slow speed gravel track it should be acceptable for a start.

It's also the easiest solution and I would really like to start riding the Gravster over the coming days.... I've been on this project since late June last year - that was when the idea of building that bike first sprang to my mind... And my expectations were to have the build completed within a couple of months... More than nine months have lapsed since that first idea and I guess it's time to give it a go...

adding a 2-mm washer each side of the hub will do the following:

- Spread the 130mm rear to 134, which means that the dropouts will be angled away and not parallel to the washers.

Correct. I have to add that initially I had a dropout alignment issue.
I sent the frame back to Argos for them to add a very fine layer of brazing at the very end of the NDS dropout opening - these dropouts do not have adjustment screws...

And to be perfectly complete I should also add that I would like to check the hanger alignment as well...
But first I would need to have a wheel which is perfectly aligned - and there is no way to be absolutely sure about this other than first checking the perfect whell alignment with a jig.
Second I would need to get hold of a decent dropout alignment tool... The only one that was convincing quality wise and at a decent price - for the limited usage I will have, is actually a shameless copy of the Park Tool one from China that I spotted on the bay... Only issue is it will take nearly a month to be delivered.
Third - and most importantly, the hanger is brazed and not TIGged. Although it's proper hot bronze brazing, it's still not as bomb proof welding as TIG. I'm a bit concerned about applying to much strength onto the hanger and the dropouts.
Again - let's give it a go, let's see how the frame behave.

In practice, ds is often weaker (due to the crimping for chainring clearance I believe) and ds moves by more than nds. The nds-ds ratio can be anything between 50-50 to an eyebrow-raising 10-90.

I think this is exactly what is happening on this frame... I don't think the wheel is off-centered by as much as half the washer thickness...