Why 'STEEL IS REAL' - the science bit!

Steel is strong, but its specific strength is less than either aluminium or titanium. The reason you can build a steel mtb frame with thinner walls than either aluminium or titanium is simply that its density is greater.

The tube you quoted, 31.8 x 9-6-9, would be a reasonably substantial top tube, but you won't often see a standard 4130 top tube of less than 28.6 x 9-6-9. Heat treating makes the material stronger, so an mtb can be made with heat-treated steel with much thinner tubes. The Columbus Cyber top tube on my Kilauea is a 28.6 x 7-4-7, which is about as thin as it gets for mtb.

Aluminium tubes aren't all that much thicker. Easton Ultralite has a 0.8mm top tube, and Easton 7000 Scandium went down to 0.65. In titanium, you tend to see 0.9mm plain gauge as the thinnest. It has the opposite limiting factor to aluminium - it could go to similar thicknesses without breaking, but butted titanium isn't often used for mtb because it would be too flexy. The limiting factor for aluminium is breakage - it is still quite stiff at 0.8mm.

I don't think there's any justification for thinking in terms of 'scary light'. Frame builders operate within the terms of the warranty given by the tube manufacturer. The manufacturer will specify the thinnest selection of tubes that are suitable for mtb and no frame builder will go below that for a production frame.

Aside from the warranty costs, there's nothing to stop a builder using road tubes for an mtb frame, but the only case that I've heard of was mid 90s Ritchey team frames, some of which are lighter than an mtb tubeset. Even there though, Tom Ritchey knows a lot about tubes and would have taken into account (a) that Tange were quite conservative with their specification (8-5-8 being their lightest for mtb) and (b) that a brazed join weakens the tube less than a TIG weld does. He used to say those frames were built to last no more than one racing season, and some of them didn't even make it that far. Whether they were actually faster than a slightly heavier but stiffer frame is another issue. Only for a very light rider I would guess.
 
Steel's nice to ride, but the flex when standing up on the pedals is something that always frustrated me, I love the stiffness of an aluminium bike with a splined BB, & hollow crank arms!

Ti is a great balance between the two but it's very difficult to repair, certainly not at the local blacksmiths to get you home!!!!
 
Presuming the OP isn't passing that post off as his own, it's customary to reference your source. Otherwise it's just plagiarism.
 
Tallpaul":36ol9wxh said:
Presuming the OP isn't passing that post off as his own, it's customary to reference your source. Otherwise it's just plagiarism.

One is just quoting from knowledge gained over 20 years of riding, building, buying, reading and talking to frame builders etc. So yes, anything we learn from someone else, whether it be an article or a discussion is technically plagiarism.....but then one should ask where did they gain their knowledge from in the first place? :?

The science behind a good old piece of butted steel 31.8 x 9-6-9 tubing facinated me when I discovered just how thin it was and how it made a steel frame feel so good - just want to pass it on to others who may then also find this facinating.
 
i like steel frames
i like ali frames
i like ti frames
i like carbon frames

whats best ?
dunno
 
mikee":2ancs6ep said:
i like steel frames
i like ali frames
i like ti frames
i like carbon frames

whats best ?
dunno

...best have one of each just to be sure (well thats my excuse)! :oops:
 
shaun":1xc6xwr0 said:
WHY STEEL IS REAL

Here's the way it works...for example on a downtube that's 31.8mm in diameter, the butts (tube wall thickness at the ends of the tube) are 0.9mm thick, less than a millimeter. :shock: To look at it, you'd think it was nothing - that the tube was about to collapse. The belly of the tube (mid-portion, between the butts) is only 0.6mm thick! :shock: :shock: Fortunately you can't see that, because that's even scarier. Now, in aluminium, carbon or titanium or anything other than strong CroMo steel, these dimensions would be instantly foolish and dangerous, but it works in good steel, because steel has the right balance of strength, toughness and rigidity. Quality steel tubing (often alloyed with chromium, vanadium or molybdenum) thus will soak up some vibration giving a very comfortable ride and is also resistant to 'fatigue' and therefore resists cracking. So long as it dosn't rust, a steel frame should last you a lifetime. :cool:
Science? I think even Edexcel would hesitate at awarding a pass for this.
 
shaun":35w6yzin said:
One is just quoting from knowledge gained over 20 years of riding, building, buying, reading and talking to frame builders etc. So yes, anything we learn from someone else, whether it be an article or a discussion is technically plagiarism.....but then one should ask where did they gain their knowledge from in the first place? :?

The science behind a good old piece of butted steel 31.8 x 9-6-9 tubing facinated me when I discovered just how thin it was and how it made a steel frame feel so good - just want to pass it on to others who may then also find this facinating.

Discussing knowledge isn't plagiarism. Copying and pasting something from Rivendell's website and passing it off as your own is.
 
suburbanreuben":2wh2s66a said:
Science? I think even Edexcel would hesitate at awarding a pass for this.

'Suburbanreuben' I await your 'Edexcel National Curriculum Assessment Standard' lecture on what makes a quality steel bike feel so good with pleasure. As an ameteur at bike building, I am always willing to gain more knowledge from the professional bike building elite. ;)
 
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