what lever to use whit Avid arch supreme v brakes?

[stinus]

I have two sets of avid arch supreme vbrakes, each set came whit a different set of levers:

The first set is what i think is a 1998 set of SD ultimate V, seams like four finger levers.

the second set is Avid ultimate from 1999 or 2000 (Really the same lever as my 2011 Ultimate black obs.)

the brakes and levers are going on my 1994 Parkpre (build tread: http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewto ... mp;t=88125) so non of them is really periodical correct but i'm not fitting cantis when i have a set of the worlds best v-brakes lying around. the 1998 levers look more old school but the brake feels better and more responsive whit the newer levers. The rest of the build is M900/M910


what leves shall i use? how can i tell if the 1998 levers is for v-brakes or cantilevers?

 

[the_duke]

Re:

The top set were supposed to be used with either canti (centre pull) or v brakes (linear pull) by using the adjustable "V" chip.

The newer pair are linear pull but Avid did a pair identical to the top ones just with different levers.

To my mind I can never get any of the "adjustable" levers to work as well as a dedicated one but many say otherwise.

The catalogue may explain a bit better. . . .

http://www.retrobike.co.uk/gallery2/d/1 ... vid+98.pdf

 

[stinus]

I have been looking in the catalog, how does the "v-chip" work? is't it just the same as the speed dial function?

 

[the_duke]

Re:

Basically yes, it moves the pivot point of the brake lever.

If it was me Id try and find these levers for an older look (and best performance as they are intended for v's / linear pull)

Until then keep these on, they should work with the v chip but as I said, not quite as well in my experience.

 

[PeteC]

I've used both the original V-chipped Ultimates and the 'gray ops' on a set of Arch Supremes this year (on my '99 Chameleon---build thread is in the '98+ section).

The v-chipped levers felt spongey. They could lock-up the wheels if needed, but I had to run the brake pads close to the rim and the levers would need to be pulled far too close to the bar to really lock up fast. I switched to the 'gray-ops' about 3 weeks and put a few miles on them since installing. Waaaay better. No sense having brakes that good with spongey levers... as pretty as they are, my experience with the v-chipped Ultimates was to only use them on cantis.

 

[iamkeith]

Re:

Well this is timely. I finally figured out the difference between the chipped and non-chipped levers, just last week - ironically to pair an an arch supreme front brake with a pair of cantis in back. I'd heard about the different versions but, until I held both in my hand and really looked at them side by side, didn't understand what it was. It's not possible to tell the difference from your photos, so hopefully this picture will help. And hopefully you actually have the right ones.

The V-chipped ones have an extra piece of material on the adjustable cable yoke that prevents it from pivoting. (kind of shown in the catalog, but not with the other version for benefit of comparison) In the non-chipped ones, it is allowed to swing freely. So it's not just a matter of having the leverage adjustment screw, which both versions have!

As to which levers to use: I actually don't think this combo feels spongy at all. I used these very levers for 10+ years on a bike with a similar V/canti setup, and really liked it - so much so that I bought what I THOUGHT was this second set a few years ago... but now understand was incorrect. The 3-finger lever feels nicer than the cramped 2-finger levers of today's brakes - but maybe that's just because of familiarity. They clearly match the vintage of your brakes better though. And those new ones - as nice as they are - always seemed kind of over-the-top to me. Like the design criteria was "how expensive and blingy can we make a mundane lever become?"

The jury's out for me on the Arch Supremes, on the other hand. Nice looking for sure but, after using them for only a week, I'm already tired of the crud and dry leaves getting caught on the arch.....

 

[the_duke]

Re:

So are you saying that you have tried the V-Specific versions to compare as well? These are visually different and won't have the v-chip, they don't need it. As you can see the lever itself is a different shape. I have used the cheaper non-"ultimate" versions of this lever and they were excellent.

They were called SD-Ultimate L (for linear aka "V")

The ones below or "three finger" versions are the ones that can have the v-chip. . . . or not. Is it not removable? In other words, no v-chip = canti, v-chip = v's. Im not 100% on that one, its all very hazy!

I think I read that you used these with a v-chip for v's and didn't have any problems. Like I said, some people seem to get on better with them than others, personally I find the V-specific lever better. The v-chip always seemed a bit of a bodge so people didn't have to change their expensive levers or could do what you did and have a mix of canti and v.

These were called SD-Ultimate V (As in v chip)

 

[iamkeith]

Re: Re:

So are you saying that you have tried the V-Specific versions to compare as well? These are visually different and won't have the v-chip, they don't need it. As you can see the lever itself is a different shape.

Ahhh. I totally missed the "different lever shape" part of the discussion. I have NOT tried those later V-only ones.

The ones below or "three finger" versions are the ones that can have the v-chip. . . . or not. Is it not removable? In other words, no v-chip = canti, v-chip = v's. Im not 100% on that one, its all very hazy!

The V-chip is not removable. It is machined into the cable carrier / yoke thingy. I wish I'd taken better pictures before I assembled the bike. It was completely hazy to me until this project, and it's a really subtle difference.

With the chip, you can use them for either canti or V, by adjusting the cable-throw position via the speed dial. They feel remarkable balanced when mixed, but not perfect. Without the chip, adjusting the speed dial makes some subtle difference in leverage ratio, but not enough to compensate for the longer cable-pull requirements of linear brakes. So the maximum setting will feel "better" than the minimum (standard cantilever) setting, but still be somewhat "spongy."

Makes me wonder what the whole speed dial thing was really all about. Perhaps just a way to get more leverage and travel out of your brakes in case they were set too far from the rim or if the straddle wire was less than ideal length?

I think I read that you used these with a v-chip for v's and didn't have any problems. Like I said, some people seem to get on better with them than others, personally I find the V-specific lever better. The v-chip always seemed a bit of a bodge so people didn't have to change their expensive levers or could do what you did and have a mix of canti and v.

My hunch, having just gone through this, is that most of the people who have had problems with them didn't actually have the V-chipped version, but thought that they did. Until last week, I thought I had two pair of the exact same levers. I think it was just dumb luck for me when I bought the first pair, in the mid-90s, that they happened to be the chipped version - and that they worked out for my application (and now, this one). I could have just as easily ended up with the others.

Regarding those slightly-newer ones with the different lever: Since the body of the brake appears to be exactly the same, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they actually DO have a V-chip - or at least an exact equivalent leverage ratio to them. It looks to me as if these were really just a way for Avid to update to the new two-finger lever fashion and to the obsolescence of cantis, without having to invest in completely new tooling. Without changing the actual body and main hinge point, I have a hard time imagining how they'd be mechanically different than the old chip-optional levers.

 

[the_duke]

Re:

Looks like we got there in the end . . . . .probably

 

[RockiMtn]

i would get a hold of the Avid Ultimate SD-L levers if you want to go with the older style on the Arch Supreme.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=292362

Here's some details regarding the different levers when I first discovered them. Also covers the V-chip mod on the earlier canti versions to make it pull a little more for V-brake applications. Overall it doesn't function as well as the dedicated V-lever.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=204898