What is a Retro Classic Road Bike ?

[David B]

Also heard in this thread is that a frame needs to have lugs. So that excludes this Slim Chance that can imo can be considered a very interesting classic, just because it is an early attempt with no lugs >> Slim Chance

Personally I don't think that TIGged steel is classic. Chance built really great frames with all the ethos of craftsmanship of the great frame builders. But for me a neat weld is just simply not the same as a lug. I'm not saying it's a bad frame, just a harbinger of things to come, and those things were not classic. Interesting? Absolutely. Advanced? Yes. Ahead of it's time? Yes. Classic? Hmmm.
Of course any of these definitions get ragged at the edges, things did not change overnight and all at the same time.

Due to the fabrication method, TIG frames aren't as easily repaired as their lugged or fillet-brazed cousins either. Or so a local builder assured me when my 853 road frame ended up with a cracked seat tube - his advice was to retire it as a new tube couldn't simply be welded/fillet-brazed in its place; hence I ended up with a lugged 531c frame (2nd-hand, so probably cheaper than a repair all told) which is actually a nicer ride.

David

 

[doctor-bond]

Agreed. Tig welding is for building car exhausts and milking machines not classic bicycles. That's why I can't buy into the Fat Chance hype. Don't doubt that they are super machines just couldn't bring myself to have one.

 

[john]

Agreed. Tig welding is for building car exhausts and milking machines not classic bicycles. That's why I can't buy into the Fat Chance hype. Don't doubt that they are super machines just couldn't bring myself to have one.

I can see how one might say a retro road bike should either be lugged or fillet brazed, however the same really doesn't hold in the world of MTBs.

The TIG vs Brazed vs Lugged debate has probably been done to death elsewhere and could well be a debate for another thread. The fact someone like Pegoretti has pioneered the use of TIG welding on the road side would perhaps suggest to me it is indeed suitable for use though...

 

[doctor-bond]

Ok - so the milking machine gibe was a little unfair: I'd concede that welding is suitable for making modern high quality bicyces that can perform sweetly. Welding also gets the most out of some modern tubesets (and for some metals it's the only option).

But welds don't have the aesthetic appeal that's needed to give an old road bike classic status: brazing is just so much part of that world.

Granted, the MTB scene is different as TIGd bikes were part of the story from early on and, for better or worse, have acheived legendary status in some cases.

But to me, the Slim Chance example seems to be an advanced road bike borrowing its retro/classic status from its chubbier, muddier cousins.

 

[hamster]

I don't think that it's that TIG is unsuitable, more an aesthetic judgment.

It's not wrong, but we just don't do it.

 

[Agency_Scum]

Personally, I think people should back their arguments with lovely photos.

( unfolds chair, unscrews tartan thermos...waits )

 

[doctor-bond]

Personally, I think people should back their arguments with lovely photos.

Quite right.

A nicely welded milking machine: keeps milk inside a tube.

A nicely welded modern bike: keeps its rider moving efficiently.

A superb classic by a frame builder at the top of their game:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/31761614@N08/5043492777/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/31761614@N08/5043619311/

 

[Agency_Scum]

Nice

 

[Citoyen du monde]

Ok - so the milking machine gibe was a little unfair: I'd concede that welding is suitable for making modern high quality bicyces that can perform sweetly. Welding also gets the most out of some modern tubesets (and for some metals it's the only option).

But welds don't have the aesthetic appeal that's needed to give an old road bike classic status: brazing is just so much part of that world.

I don't believe that it is the joining technology that is important on its own. As I have stated previously, I can well appreciate the importance and beauty of a TIG welded Chance or Klein and fully respect their unquestionable impact on the development of racing bikes; this does not however mean that I consider them classics or retro-bikes.

Take a look at the welds on this bike and please tell me that welds cannot give classic status to a bike. All the tubing on this bike was made from flat sheet metal which was formed into tubes by the framebuilder and then welded together before undergoing hours and hours of finishing work. The tubes were dimensioned according to what the framebuilder felt was necessary for the rider with some tubes being overdimensioned for a particular rider. This is the same way that these bikes were built from the 70's onward. The bike was also built to allow one to fit either previous components or the very newest parts of the day. This level of workmanship is no longer offered by anybody. Not even on new bikes with the same brand. They simply can no longer get the money required to pay for this type of workmanship.

 

[roadking]

I do not think the classic issue is about lugs*, quite simply because there were many builders in the early classic period - especially just after WW2 when materials were scarce - building fine fillet brazed framesets: Gillot, the Higgins Superlight, and Hobbs Of Barbican to name three London builders; any one of these fillet brazed frames is regarded as a classic, and rightly so.

Many framesets were built with, for example Nervex lugs, and whilst often these frames are regarded as"classic"many are grey porridge.

Many collectors of course have a justification for their own tastes.

I think this thread has gone down a cul de sac (classic needs to be separated from retro-classic).

Roadking.

*excluding TIG welding.