Vintage 'Winchester' roadbike.

[SteveWinchester]

Hi all,
My name is Steve and have recently joined the group.
I live in Dorset in the UK. A few years ago I wanted to get into cycling again to get fit and purchased a roadbike locally. I'd never heard of the make but the bike looked good and was extremely light. On a ride out a man commented that he'd never heard of the make and it got me curious ? So I started to try and do some research on the manufacturer, but to no avail. Everywhere I looked( for hours and hours) and found no information at all. 3 years on and I've just found a little out.
Its 1970's, American made ? Although the frame could also be from Japan and shipped to the uk. The badge emblem says Winchester ( but not the guns ). The frame joining has gorgeous Lugging that I've found out is from 60's - 70's. I've just found 1 other bike only that is identical to mine, and basically I'd love some history on the maker, origin, year of manufacturer, rarity and colour schemes that they were released in etc.

I'd appreciate any possible info about this bike as it seems to be especially rare.

Kind Regards Steve.

 

[SteveWinchester]

In addition to the photos I provided of the only other Winchester bike I've ever seen, I thought I'd better post some of mine as they have better close ups. Also I think that the heart shape on my frame may be an attempt to' fake it' into a De Rosa? I can't find any stampings or markings other than you can see.
Kind regards Steve

 

[keithglos]

Both yellow and blue bikes are "low end", mass produced types using lugs poorly imitating the famous Nervex Pro.
Surely unlikely to be Italian.

Keith

 

[SteveWinchester]

Both yellow and blue bikes are "low end", mass produced types using lugs poorly imitating the famous Nervex Pro.
Surely unlikely to be Italian.

Keith

Thanks for your input Keith .
Whilst getting info about the yellow bike, an established guru like yourself in America said that he owned 1 in the 70's and thought that it may have come from Japan. It has dia compe brakes etc, so ? If you try and match the emblem, it doesn't exist?
So when you say 'mass produced' do you think that many frames we're made and say a couple of blokes in a shed, stamped 100 of there own emblems, and bought the mass produced frames and turned out their own bikes ?
Out of curiosity I have weighed the frame alone with no ancillaries at all and it comes in at 2665grams. That seems pretty light to me? What do you expect a well made frame to weigh ?
Doing my research I found that early 80's Peugeot frames had the same kind of lugs and style.
I'd like to restore it back to a 70's style, so all information is greatly appreciated.

 

[keithglos]

Steve, Many bikes were mass produced and supplied with imaginary names or specially branded for retailers.
In the 60s a butted 531 frame with forks, steel headset and bracket set would be about 6.5 pounds.
It is quite possible for a heavier frame to ride very well, as the Peugeot Carbolite (known as Carboheavy), because the frame design was OK. Here in UK cycle makers were stuck with allowing specific clearance between pedal and front wheel, unless for competition bikes, so a small frame had to have a long top tube. Making the head angle shallower was not usually an option for mass producers.
Keith

 

[SteveWinchester]

Cheers Keith .
I did find a handful of Nervex lugs for sale a while ago, new old stock, so it is more than possible to make your own frames etc. These Winchester frames are all hand made I feel as I stripped mine down yesterday and shot blasted it ready for restoration. Its clearly hand 'brazed' with cable eyes individually brazed on etc and the lugging all brazed in also. It must have taken quite some time to construct in such a manner without welding etc. I've done brazing myself and it's very time consuming and quite a skill. I looked down the head to inspect the rivots for the emblem and they are definitely original and very old, infact I can't find replacements at the moment, so I can't remove the emblem for painting, until I do. Cheap Raleigh twist rivots are the closest, but not of the original style, so I've hit a hurdle at the moment.
I guess like most people you haven't heard of Winchester either ? But I do appreciate your knowledge and help. My next move is to wait for info from the USA, about what they were etc and to get details of the correct colour schemes and ancillary equipment.
Many thanks Keith and if you could do some fishing for me about Winchester within your community that would be great Take it easy.

 

[torqueless]

Could be a sub-marque of Windsor, in Mexico? (yeah I know, it doesn't sound Mexican at all, does it?)

 

[SteveWinchester]

Thanks for that Touqueless, another bit of info to bear in mind. I'll take anything I can get at the moment! I've managed to find so little out about this bike, it's so frustrating.
My hobby is restoring old cars, currently doing a minivan for keeps, so restoring this bike has kinda joined in, but I never expected it to be so hard to find out just a simple thing as an original colour ? I'm not gonna sell it, I just wanna give it another 50 years or so, maybe pass it on etc. I just want to do it properly you know

 

[SteveWinchester]

To Touqueless
Hi, you are so rite !! I just got a message from a guy in USA, he had pictures of his bike and his had more detailing. Identical to mine !! Almost. I can't believe it !!
Basically it's a Windsor-Mexico ( a derivative of the Carrera model) and was likely built up by an importing shop of there own style.
How it ended up in the UK is another mystery, but at least I can now do some research into Windsor and find there colour schemes.
Thank you very much for your input Top bloke !

 

[SteveWinchester]

Steve, Many bikes were mass produced and supplied with imaginary names or specially branded for retailers.
In the 60s a butted 531 frame with forks, steel headset and bracket set would be about 6.5 pounds.
It is quite possible for a heavier frame to ride very well, as the Peugeot Carbolite (known as Carboheavy), because the frame design was OK. Here in UK cycle makers were stuck with allowing specific clearance between pedal and front wheel, unless for competition bikes, so a small frame had to have a long top tube. Making the head angle shallower was not usually an option for mass producers.
Keith

Hi Keith, I just found out that the bike frame is a Windsor ! Funnily enough in the 70's they employed an ex employee from the Cinelli factory. And rather than direct him in his building they left him to do his own thing, and being from the Italian building critique he just wanted to build bikes in the style he was used to. So Windsor ended up producing a Mexican manufactured bike, but built in an Italian fashion and was incorporating 'Coloumbus' tubing and design. They were kind of a low end competition bike for the masses ? Expensive but not to the level of a competition bike, but had the same build quality of Cinelli. Not a Cinelli, but almost! So I don't quite understand your opinion on low end copies of the Nervex Lug ? It either is or it isn't? Surely? And like I said, I've seen new old stock of the nervex lug for sale. So I think that for a period of 10 years Windsor bikes were actually producing quality high end bikes, that were just in the grips of the masses. They were also selling blanks to independent retailers who were building bikes up to there own standards I.e ancillaries and emblems. This is where my bike comes in. I recently received a message from a guy in USA who had almost an identical bike to mine. His had chrome lugging, but the same Emblem and underneath had detailing by Windsor-Mexico and apparently was based very closely on their Carrera model. So this all leads me to believe that mine is a Windsor-Mexico and was a blank sold to a retailer who built it up to there own standard and sold it on.
I still haven't found out where the Winchester emblem has derived from, what it's about, but the guys in the US will soon come up with something soon I'm sure. As and when I get the answers I'll inform you and the group.
It's good to learn some historical data about all this and the 70's, but Jesus the sport was at a real peak then and everyone seemed to jump on the bandwagon and finding the real facts out are extremely difficult. The funny thing about all this, is I remember being about 6, so the late 70's and remember a TV programme called 'SportsStars' I think, and was infatuated with a contestant, who I think was called Brian? And I remember cycling being a big part of it, this was probably in the heyday, but you forget all these things. Bmx took over for me, although I do remember wanting a Rayleigh milk cup challenge racer also. Jesus I'm getting old! Lol.