UK steel

[ferrus]

Knight made some nice looking road frames, and I think I remember seeing a Knight MTB in the late 80s.

 

[one-eyed_jim]

Kaiser wasn't quite specific whether 'who made' means BITD or last week, but since one-eyed-jim has ruled that all steel is a thing of the past, people building steel frames now could be said to be retro.

Now then!

All I said was:

"The MTB list is short enough to be interesting, covering
the brief period from the rise of the MTB to the death of
steel as a marketable material."

That steel did indeed die as a marketable material - or at least a mass-marketable material - is hard to deny. Keith Bontrager certainly believed as much, and he ought to know. I'd say, for practical purposes you could define the date of death as the year Specialized ceased to sell a steel Stumpjumper. That's also a convenient closing bracket to the retro period.

It's also true that steel has undergone a rebirth, and that even during the dark years there were steel frames on the market. But there's also clearly a difference between the steel that died, and the steel that has arisen - if not in its composition, certainly in its market position and its promotion.

The problem with this thread (excuse me Kaiser old chap) is that just about everyone who ever built (or manufactured - there's a distinction to be made) an MTB in the UK used steel, and just about anyone who manufactured (or built) steel frames in the UK either built an MTB or disappeared before or during the MTB boom.

So, I'd like to propose two more interesting lists:

UK-built bike brands that survived the MTB boom but never sold an MTB

and

UK-built non-steel retro bikes.

I'll start the first list with Brompton, and the second with Pace and Kirk.

 

[one-eyed_jim]

Cleland never made their own frames.

True, but they at least they were a British company selling Britsh-built frames.

 

[haggis]

Alves = Charlie Ralph

Corrado also made both MTB and Road bikes in Liverpool, and they may still do.

I heard from a wee birdie that Charlie Ralph was one of the few given some 953 to experiment with, are you sure he's not building
messiah?

 

[Anthony]

All I said was:

"The MTB list is short enough to be interesting, covering the brief period from the rise of the MTB to the death of steel as a marketable material."

That steel did indeed die as a marketable material - or at least a mass-marketable material - is hard to deny. Keith Bontrager certainly believed as much, and he ought to know. I'd say, for practical purposes you could define the date of death as the year Specialized ceased to sell a steel Stumpjumper. That's also a convenient closing bracket to the retro period.

It's also true that steel has undergone a rebirth, and that even during the dark years there were steel frames on the market. But there's also clearly a difference between the steel that died, and the steel that has arisen - if not in its composition, certainly in its market position and its promotion.

There’s a big difference between the concepts marketable and mass-marketable, because the small, one-off builders tend to exist to serve a market that is not served by the big builders. Hence in the US, there are probably as many small builders of steel frames now as there ever were. They thrive making steel frames precisely because it lost popularity and the range of choice from big builders narrowed so much. And ironically, although aluminium is so popular, few small builders offer aluminium frames as they have little demand for it.

There’s a huge contrast between small builders in the UK and the US though. British hand-built makes tend to be old and stuck in their ways, they are all fillet-brazers and almost all of their demand comes from road frames. In the US, the position is completely different and far better. Small builders are almost all much younger, they almost all TIG-weld and very few braze, their designs are more varied and imaginative and there are plenty of builders who concentrate mainly on mtb. I guess the differences reflect the greater wealth of the US and the much larger number of people who can afford a custom frame.

 

[one-eyed_jim]

There’s a big difference between the concepts marketable and mass-marketable, because the small, one-off builders tend to exist to serve a market that is not served by the big builders.

Well, yes and no. In practical terms the small one-man-band custom builders have never been big enough to market themselves effectively, and their total market share - especially in the MTB world - was always tiny, not least because (as you note) British framebuilders have tended to remain faithful to construction methods (lugs and fillets) that were looking distinctly oldfashioned by the mid nineties - if not earlier. Fuquay was TIG welding steel, and Omega too. Both are out of business now.

That's why I suggested it would be more interesting to look at those framebuilders who hadn't built an MTB. For most of the nineties and well into the noughties it seems to me that framebuilders were happy to take on whatever paid the bills - repair work, refinishing, and the occasional custom build - with touring bikes being the bread and butter.

Hence in the US, there are probably as many small builders of steel frames now as there ever were.

I think there are probably more today than there were ten years ago, but time will tell how many of them stay the distance.

They thrive making steel frames precisely because it lost popularity and the range of choice from big builders narrowed so much.

There's certainly an increase in numbers, but I'm not sure how many are really thriving. I used to subscribe to the framebuilders e-list, and the constant refrain of a number of well-established builders (Bruce Gordon, for example) was this: do it because you love it, or do it as a hobby, but don't do it if you hope to earn more than minimum wage in the medium term.

Certainly, though, the over-specialisation of the mass market created opportunities for the smaller outfits - and the likes of Surly, for example. But I don't think it would be unfair to say that steel was moribund before Surly and the rest brought it back to life. Looking for a quality steel bike in the late nineties, the choice was between custom and second hand, with very few exceptions.

And ironically, although aluminium is so popular, few small builders offer aluminium frames as they have little demand for it.

True. It's also expensive to set up the necessary heat-treatment equipment compared with steel.

There’s a huge contrast between small builders in the UK and the US though. British hand-built makes tend to be old and stuck in their ways, they are all fillet-brazers and almost all of their demand comes from road frames. In the US, the position is completely different and far better. Small builders are almost all much younger, they almost all TIG-weld and very few braze, their designs are more varied and imaginative and there are plenty of builders who concentrate mainly on mtb. I guess the differences reflect the greater wealth of the US and the much larger number of people who can afford a custom frame.

For me the bigger contrast is in the existence in the US of smaller, premium brands like Waterford, Serotta and IF. I can't think of a UK equivalent. Many of the new, young American artisan builders are also favouring lugs and brass over TIG - much like Robin Mather in the UK. But the absence of TIG among the UK builders is striking.

 

[fatandforty]

Definately Donahue in MTB. I don't know how many he made but I've got a lovely steel MTB frame by him.

 

[Coleman]

Nigel Dean made MTBs. (Best known for road and touring bikes though).

I have a 531 Magnum one from around 1990 and my brother has one from the lat 80's that I think is 501.

 

[tee-one]

Raleigh (but they're not cool)

:roll: