This frame might be an Alec Bird but is NOT a Carlton!

[sawston_vulcan]

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Britis ... rd_Ken.htm

As given above......looks very similar to mine...particularly the seatpost cluster and the integrated bolt.

So who are in the frame [bad pun but]...Holdsworthy, Roberts and Bill Gray has been mentioned too...for Clive Stuart Cycles.....possibly but unlikely to be Alec Bird....found nothing substantial about him.....apart from him arguing with Ken!

The key issue is the Capella lugs.....we know the frame is not by Carlton...so someone must have got hold of the lugs AFTER Carlton closed.....so that would suggest the frame was built in the 1980s....not earlier!

 

[sawston_vulcan]

Hi

My previous link www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-208881.html has the banter with Ken Bird and Clive Stuart employees, they talk about rebadged bought in frames from Holdsworthy having 3 digit frame numbers, as yours does. Although maybe this is just coincedence?

Read the last page of the above thread and there is an entry from Alec Bird's daughter....so will contact her...little to lose...and will add pics of my frame to see if anyone using that thread have any idea....they might just do!

Classic Rendezvous makes reference to Ken Bird frames being built by Holdsworth and Chas Roberts. www.classicrendezvous.com/British_isles/Bird_Ken.html

The frame has an identical seat cluster with an integral bolt....and that frame is either Holdsworthy or Roberts.....but on another forum someone suggested Bill Gray...but then there is the issue of the Capella lugs and the closure of Carlton in 1981....a question of chronology.....because if it was not built by Carlton or Reynolds...then by the rules of copyright....the frame must gave been built after 1981.

An finaly, I promise , the 1st link also talks about plastic Unicantor saddles being popular on Clive Stuart bikes, who also rebadged Holdsworthy frames with there 3 digit frame numbers. Although I don't know if Clive Stuart bikes would've been available after 1981, when others could've got Carlton lugs?

Good question!

I found the article with Stephen Bird and sent him an email but it was returned...so that was a dead end too

 

[jonsage]

very, very interesting stuff!

Yes it is....I was just coming to terms with the possibility that the frame was a Carlton of some description.....Now?....built by Alec Bird???

If someone on this forum knows Alec [i believe he is still alive]....i would love to talk with him....it would answer some relevant questions.

Hi,

Alec is most deffo still alive.
He has recently suffered a heart attack and had a stay in hospital.

Dave at colour-tech in Crayford still stays in contact with Alec.

One thing to note, is there was a dead cert way to ensure you got an Alex Bird built frame.
Do some work for Alec and he would probably build you a frame if he couldn't pay you.

I have a Alec Bird track frame that Alec built for my father after he did some work on his house boat.
I have just had it reworked and refinished by the guys at colour tech and its awesome. Photos on 531c bird frame thread.

If you want Daves number give me a shout and he may point you in the direction of Alec.

Cheers Jon

 

[torqueless]

I'm imagining a scenario in which someone with an old Carlton road frame with Capella lugs, possibly with a damaged rear triangle, walks into Ken Bird's some time around the mid-70's asking for the rear triangle to be either replaced or shortened, with track ends and fastback seat cluster. Possibly the bracket was replaced at the same time, which would explain the non-Carltonesque frame number. That would be a lot of work, but perhaps cheaper than a new frame.

I mention this as a possibility, because if I had got my hands on an old 531db frame in the mid-70's, one with unfashionably long chainstays, large clearance, lots of fork rake, etc, and had the funds, I would have contemplated doing the same thing, schoolboy fashion-victim that I was! Judging from the reminiscences, even if you didn't have the funds, cleaning Ken's car a few times might get you a discount.

Presumably Alec Bird would have done the work, and the frame resprayed and Bird transfers attached.

I suppose the only way to verify this theory is to strip the paint around the brazed joints and check for a disparity in brazing style between the headlugs and the seat cluster/bracket etc., which would probably prove inconclusive anyway, so who wants to do that?

Just another theory-feel free to shoot it down!

 

[Excel]

Bird

I did just that in 1972 when I took a 10 year old Excel frame into Ken & Alec's shop in Welling for a respray and asked if they would put their own transfers on instead of The Excel as Bird frames were very much in fashion at the time, they were quite ok about this and three weeks later I was proudly riding a "Bird" down the old Q25/3 doing a personal best.....must've been psychological

I'm imagining a scenario in which someone with an old Carlton road frame with Capella lugs, possibly with a damaged rear triangle, walks into Ken Bird's some time around the mid-70's asking for the rear triangle to be either replaced or shortened, with track ends and fastback seat cluster. Possibly the bracket was replaced at the same time, which would explain the non-Carltonesque frame number. That would be a lot of work, but perhaps cheaper than a new frame.

I mention this as a possibility, because if I had got my hands on an old 531db frame in the mid-70's, one with unfashionably long chainstays, large clearance, lots of fork rake, etc, and had the funds, I would have contemplated doing the same thing, schoolboy fashion-victim that I was! Judging from the reminiscences, even if you didn't have the funds, cleaning Ken's car a few times might get you a discount.

Presumably Alec Bird would have done the work, and the frame resprayed and Bird transfers attached.

I suppose the only way to verify this theory is to strip the paint around the brazed joints and check for a disparity in brazing style between the headlugs and the seat cluster/bracket etc., which would probably prove inconclusive anyway, so who wants to do that?

Just another theory-feel free to shoot it down!

 

[torqueless]

Yeah I believe it was common practice for shops doing resprays to be happy to attach their own transfers. Free advertising.

Thinking about my theory of yesterday, I got another version today: Someone front-ends a fastback frame which may or may not be a Ken/Alec Bird. Someone gets the frame repaired by recycling the top/head/downtubes off an old Carlton frame. Add forks. Get frame resprayed by Ken/Alec Bird.

But then the seat lug looks like a Capella as well.... Think I better stop theorising.....

 

[predki]

I acquired a Goeffrey Butler bike recently. It has <EO> symbol on bottom bracket. Plus very faint number that I have problem to decipher, it's like 0088 or 8800 (depends how you look at it). The bike, according to it's original owner, was made in 1977/78 for Geoffrey Butler shop in Croydon by Cliff Shrub or Mick Coward. It's Reynolds 531 frame. Maybe it will help (or add some more confusion...).

Piotr

 

[curyam]

I realize this is an older post and most points covered, however I've gathered some odd bits about the Bird bros on my Clive Stuart site. Www.myclive.homestead.com if anyone is interested.