The world turned on its head - stop eating! Don’t walk! Ride …. Electric….

Interesting. Think I would tend to agree that steel probably represents the "best" option all round.

Being a Ti fanboy though, yes, pretty grim production wise. A considerable benefit of Ti is service life expectancy, and it can be re-cycled infinitely. Once it's done, it's done and needs no further preservation treatments. A Ti bike was and would never be considered a "disposable" purchase so to speak. I'm not in the least surprised a CF bike is cheaper than steel; give it a few years time BSOs in supermarkets will be made of it with a big sticker saying "Carbon Fibre Flyer" and people will buy them.

On a wider point, the sheer quantities of pre-owned complete bikes and choices is staggering. I don't think I could ever justify buying a new bike today or in the foreseeable future. At the moment I have concerns how money in the Ti industry is flowing.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willys...industry-goes-through-russia/?sh=3e2c89fda268
 
Don't know for certain, but wouldn't be surprised if on average, titanium bikes had a shorter lifespan than steel bikes despite being sold as bikes to last a lifetime. There are an awful lot of cracked Ti frames out there (and they aren't easy to repair - unlike steel).
 
greencat said:
I think I did raise this wrinkle in the last ebike thread you started... 🤣

TBF, there are lots of oddities like this eg sometimes better to get rid of old appliance (including all of the additional manufacturing emissions for the new one). This can be counter-intuitive - and the research somewhat specific in the conditions where it holds true. For example, washing dishes by hand turns out to be more carbon intensive than using a dishwasher, but only because there's an assumption that handwashing will use running hot water rather than fill a bowl (and I don't know anyone who does that!). Plus most of my hot water is generated by our solar panels so they can **** right off again. I suspect research like that simply allows middle class greens to assuage their conscience.

I tend to be an old school greeny in that I like to use as little as possible for as long as possible (although will happily admit I have my blind spots).

Incorporating other negative externalities such as mining and its impact on communities, end of life recycling etc, longevity etc may mean an intervention reduces carbon, but is still extremely crap for the planet and its people. Aluminium mining ain't great, for example:

https://www.greenspec.co.uk/building-design/aluminium-production-environmental-impact/
We are collectively using our planet's resources in a manner which means your kids (and their kids) - if you have any, are likely to face difficulties we didn't. I'll leave it to the reader to decide if they want to give future generations the finger or not. The flipside is that crisis is the mother of invention, but even here - I think the systems level change and collective thinking required to get from here to where we need to be might be beyond us as a species. But doubters have been proved wrong in the past...
Click to expand...
indeed - the Lithium mining article I artached begins to get at this - the event which created the rare elements we are so carefully seeking out and digging up was quite large and A Very Long Time Ago - The Big Bang - and so any digging up and using needs to be judicious and driven by good values - ah...in fact most if it is driven by profit and politics. Damn.
 
On a more serious note than my previous replies, regardless of all the scientific stuff, all the studies, I think the ultimate bitter taste in my mouth comes from the fact that we have reached a point in which we are willing to make claims that sets a precedent so surreal and absurd that one would think it's a joke, the fact that we would entertain the idea that expensive electric bicycles (or other EV's), produced in the most exploitative way possible, could be 'better for the planet' than walking. The idea that we need billionaire's pipedreams to 'fix the issues of the world', is sickening.

I need a drink.
 
Yes. Some Ti frames have been known to crack. I've had two crack. When they crack, they get great publicity ;)

While two wrongs don't make it right, the quantity of cracked AL frames and rusted away steel frames (from the inside) adds to the waste pile. Carbon Fibre frames had a knock in a direction they weren't designed for and trashed.

This is where a quality well built Ti frame will typically outlive others. To this day I have not heard of a cracked Moots, Eriksen, Morati, Sandvik Ti frame. Another point if you are lucky to be an original owner - the products are backed up with a solid guarantee.
 
Woz said:
Yes. Some Ti frames have been known to crack. I've had two crack. When they crack, they get great publicity ;)

While two wrongs don't make it right, the quantity of cracked AL frames and rusted away steel frames (from the inside) adds to the waste pile. Carbon Fibre frames had a knock in a direction they weren't designed for and trashed.

This is where a quality well built Ti frame will typically outlive others. To this day I have not heard of a cracked Moots, Eriksen, Morati, Sandvik Ti frame. Another point if you are lucky to be an original owner - the products are backed up with a solid guarantee.
Click to expand...

I've had 1 out of 3 of my titanium frames crack (twice) - and that was under normal usage, not crash damage. Another needed a repair to a brake boss after the weld failed. I've had three steel frames crack out of more than dozen I've owned (2 was the result of crashes, only one under normal usage). I've also been riding steel frames a lot longer and more distance than titanium ones. Appreciate this is an N of 1, but wouldn't be surprised if my experience was typical. There's no reason why a steel frame shouldn't last a life time - and in fact plenty do.
 
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