geddy1972
Specialized Fan
i work no more than a mile from where they are based in the old IBM building in North harbour in Portsmouth.
i fell sorry for the staff being laid off at this time of year.
State of the industry: a running thread
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i fell sorry for the staff being laid off at this time of year.
N-plus-one
Devout Dirtbag
It is the staff in the HQ at Portsmouth. It was reported in the local paper online, a few days ago.
Don’t know if this is a a warning sign for Cotic but the new Solaris is £1200. I had to double check that number from the email when I went on the website. That’s £400 increase from what I remember in the last few years.
Can only imagine Cy is really confident he has a market share at that price point or they are really struggling to make a profitable frame.
Hope it’s the former.
Can only imagine Cy is really confident he has a market share at that price point or they are really struggling to make a profitable frame.
Hope it’s the former.
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Yep, saw that. Excuse seems to be they are moving production to Central/Eastern Europe. Not sure why that would be a plus?
Big thread on STW about it. Personally I can't see why you'd pay custom, hand made prices for an off the shelf bike? It'll be nearly twice the price of other, similar quality frames.
Madmax1993
Orange 🍊 Fan
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I agree with this, and it may be unpopular. But why do we need to support 'bricks and mortar' shops? Not just bike shops, but any of them? Why is the onus on the consumer to pay more for the same part (for example)? I don't earn enough to overpay for something out of charity, to keep a local bloke in business. That might sound harsh, but the shop owner isn't my mate, or a family member, and pragmatism dictates that I'll buy online and keep a few extra quid in my pocket. I wish it were different, but it's not on me to prop up the LBS sector. If shops want to survive, they have to be competitive, if not on price, then on value or knowledge.
I worked in the bike trade for 10 years until last year, so I have experience and this is how I see it:
Online retailers have economies of scale LBS's can't match. Nor should they be expected to. If you have something in stock for a customer to buy and walk away with today, you are well within your rights to charge the RRP for it. If they want it at the CRC price, then they can
a) pay postage or
b) meet minimum order value for free postage and
c) wait a few days for it to arrive
All without the safety net of specialist advice that a shop can offer.
Our beloved 'bricks and mortar' shops have a whole market that online retailers can never tap into: labour. Shops should be more willing to advise customers what to buy online, then charge them a reasonable rate for fitting and build a good relationship with a customer who will hopefully come back and pay full retail on a sundry item they need in a hurry. This means a shop can carry less oddball stock (ergo lower overheads).
More shops should adapt and diversify, with cafés, or club rides and merch to build a community and a loyal customer base.
But I don't feel we owe LBSs our blind loyalty for fluffy misguided moral reasons.
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@Madmax1993 as a shop owner, i agree with some of what you say but not all, i absolutely agree that you don't have to support a crappy shop owned by a crappy person, i think most people would agree with that, those shops always eventually disappear, but advising customers to buy online? risky, you would literally be giving out advice and telling someone to buy elsewhere, now to a point i do do this, for example i don't sell e bikes, too unreliable generally for me but i tell people how to buy them, where to buy and what to expect, and which ones i can't/won't service/won't even tolerate in the shop, but that's more to ensure i don't have to deal with the crap ones as opposed giving advice on a particular bike.
while also shops do have the ability to charge labour that too has been eroded as customers already want to pay mail order prices, so if you quote parts plus labour rate they'll never go for it, so now at most it's retail price and free fitting (which for context i do on high value parts or bigger parts bills) but bluntly, people do not value knowledge and experience anymore, generally, not just in the bike trade, that customer just wants to pay the least they can get away with, and i get that money is tight, no one knows that more than me, i'm 48, i don't own a house, have no pension, and i pay myself £350 a month and £250 goes to the olds for living with them, but i'm staring down the likelihood of van life at some point as my mum has just gone in to care, long term that means the house is going (unless she's passes in a short time) i am not by any means flush, but i have a few nice bikes, that technically the shop owns. so i'd hope people would support my shop, i think i'm a good shop owner, and i think i have a good shop, and a lot of my customers are friends and i do everything i can to ensure repeat custom. but long term i'm probably f*****!
your suggestion about fitting parts from online, always issues there, currently one of the biggest being counterfeit crap, you fit it, it fails, they moan at you, because they don't want to believe they got stitched up, they'd rather believe that it's the fitters fault as it's easier to moan at them than some far eastern website. assuming they do get a genuine part quite often it's the wrong one, advising to them to get the right part but not from me to fit it for cheap labour? i'd rather not. also cross warranty issues, hmm . . . all a bit of a nightmare to be honest.
also i literally had a guy in the shop the other day, i ordered the tyres he wanted, they were an odd size, quoted him retail price of £70 each, he immediately said i can get them cheaper online, i said i'd fit these for no labour, he agreed as he was scared he'd damage his carbon rims, the next day i phoned him to tell him it was ready, he asked about clip on mudguards, i suggested SKS raceblades, think they were £55 and i said i'd fit them for that, in that time saying that he was already online saying i can get them for £40 from whoever online, he waited for me to suggest an option because he didn't know what to search for online and didn't know a brand name and immediately went to a mail order site to compare and try and push me cheaper, i said i wouldn't fit them if he bought them (mainly because i simply felt he was being rude) and don't forget it's not that shops are over pricing stuff (not generally) it's mail order that as you say has economies of scale and choosing to make smaller margins to justify their business model but people have convinced themselves that mail order is a retail price and shops charge over retail prices as opposed to shops being at retail price and mail order having a discount, while i understand in real terms there's no difference in the outcome of that previous sentence it's a mindset thing, "the shops are expensive", no, mail order is discounted, my point being there is a difference and effectively the customer does have that wrong despite it sometimes being to their benefit.
i'll also point out one other related thing, a few days ago on a local facebook group page a lady asked "what type of shop would you like to see open up locally?", i thought this was a stupid question to ask as it turned out she was eyeing up a shop unit in a small town near me, basically she wanted a shop and was asking what people would buy, now this seemed odd as obvs i knew i wanted to open a bike shop, she's asking what do you want because i'll do that, and that seemed silly as what if you then open a shop in a trade you know nothing about! anyway, people replied and listed all the types of shops that had previously been in the area, butchers, bakery, fishing tackle and bait shop, wool/knitting shop, and the list went on, all these types of shops had been in the area previously and had not been supported and faded away once the owner got demoralised and couldn't survive. my point here is people tell you what they want then don't use it, don't value it, and if they do they then say they can get that online cheaper, it's not just bike and bits, it's everything, it's extremely hard fought.
retail is not an easy trade to be in. most days i enjoy it but some times people can be terrible to deal with and they seem to have no idea how they come across to others.
sad really.
while also shops do have the ability to charge labour that too has been eroded as customers already want to pay mail order prices, so if you quote parts plus labour rate they'll never go for it, so now at most it's retail price and free fitting (which for context i do on high value parts or bigger parts bills) but bluntly, people do not value knowledge and experience anymore, generally, not just in the bike trade, that customer just wants to pay the least they can get away with, and i get that money is tight, no one knows that more than me, i'm 48, i don't own a house, have no pension, and i pay myself £350 a month and £250 goes to the olds for living with them, but i'm staring down the likelihood of van life at some point as my mum has just gone in to care, long term that means the house is going (unless she's passes in a short time) i am not by any means flush, but i have a few nice bikes, that technically the shop owns. so i'd hope people would support my shop, i think i'm a good shop owner, and i think i have a good shop, and a lot of my customers are friends and i do everything i can to ensure repeat custom. but long term i'm probably f*****!
your suggestion about fitting parts from online, always issues there, currently one of the biggest being counterfeit crap, you fit it, it fails, they moan at you, because they don't want to believe they got stitched up, they'd rather believe that it's the fitters fault as it's easier to moan at them than some far eastern website. assuming they do get a genuine part quite often it's the wrong one, advising to them to get the right part but not from me to fit it for cheap labour? i'd rather not. also cross warranty issues, hmm . . . all a bit of a nightmare to be honest.
also i literally had a guy in the shop the other day, i ordered the tyres he wanted, they were an odd size, quoted him retail price of £70 each, he immediately said i can get them cheaper online, i said i'd fit these for no labour, he agreed as he was scared he'd damage his carbon rims, the next day i phoned him to tell him it was ready, he asked about clip on mudguards, i suggested SKS raceblades, think they were £55 and i said i'd fit them for that, in that time saying that he was already online saying i can get them for £40 from whoever online, he waited for me to suggest an option because he didn't know what to search for online and didn't know a brand name and immediately went to a mail order site to compare and try and push me cheaper, i said i wouldn't fit them if he bought them (mainly because i simply felt he was being rude) and don't forget it's not that shops are over pricing stuff (not generally) it's mail order that as you say has economies of scale and choosing to make smaller margins to justify their business model but people have convinced themselves that mail order is a retail price and shops charge over retail prices as opposed to shops being at retail price and mail order having a discount, while i understand in real terms there's no difference in the outcome of that previous sentence it's a mindset thing, "the shops are expensive", no, mail order is discounted, my point being there is a difference and effectively the customer does have that wrong despite it sometimes being to their benefit.
i'll also point out one other related thing, a few days ago on a local facebook group page a lady asked "what type of shop would you like to see open up locally?", i thought this was a stupid question to ask as it turned out she was eyeing up a shop unit in a small town near me, basically she wanted a shop and was asking what people would buy, now this seemed odd as obvs i knew i wanted to open a bike shop, she's asking what do you want because i'll do that, and that seemed silly as what if you then open a shop in a trade you know nothing about! anyway, people replied and listed all the types of shops that had previously been in the area, butchers, bakery, fishing tackle and bait shop, wool/knitting shop, and the list went on, all these types of shops had been in the area previously and had not been supported and faded away once the owner got demoralised and couldn't survive. my point here is people tell you what they want then don't use it, don't value it, and if they do they then say they can get that online cheaper, it's not just bike and bits, it's everything, it's extremely hard fought.
retail is not an easy trade to be in. most days i enjoy it but some times people can be terrible to deal with and they seem to have no idea how they come across to others.
sad really.
synchronicity
Senior Retro Guru
Well it could be worse jonnyboy. Chin up. You could be a lowly youtuber.
I hear you and it's very brave to admit that you live with your olds (and not currently paying yourself much). You wouldn't be the only one.
It's a sorry state of affairs, but this cohabitation inter-generational thing is happening more and more now in the West.
Plus as your parents get old, they inevitably get sick, etc. Many successful types seem to shift this responsibility onto others.
The other thing I find is that social media (instagram) is generally not representive of reality.
Everyone is trying to show only the best bits of their life. They try to make life look easy, only show the smiling shots, you know how it is.
They don't ever show all the work they had to put in to get there. They never want to admit that it's a struggle.
Plenty of people (entrepreneurs and business owners) are doing it very tough, always working behind the scenes.
I agree with what madmax. But also jonnyboy has valid points.
I agree that people generally don't seem to value services/labour fees (as opposed to products).
The trouble with brick&mortar is that I assume most retail brick and mortar shops do not seem to own their premises.
So they have to pay rent. Rent is usually sky-high and is always going to massively eat into your profits.
When I was living in Tenerife, I didn't actually have a shop. It was online only. Initially I sort of I thought along the lines of "why would I want to be stuck in there all day?". That was half of it. The other part was cost. Towards the end I could have got a shop, even picked out a place. But it was just easier and cheaper for me to get a delivery van instead. Having said that, I spent so much on fuel I could have paid for rent with that money. I turned out to be quite a driver!
I was a little naïve and young and stupid at the time, but actually the business took off pretty quickly because in 2006 most people still did not have their own website. I did. And I was really competitive with that aspect. The biggest mistake for me was getting into debt in order to initiate something.
I personally would never do that again (getting a loan to start a business).
Trying to start new fledgling businesses on a shoestring budget.
But the longer you wait or delay, the harder it gets. More competition.
I feel this paying interest on loans is like having some kind of parasite on your back.
Eventually it drains your energy, you get burnout.
Whereas people who don't, have an advantage over you. They're working 5-20% easier than you.
Just look at the US economy now — 33 trillion dollars in debt they are now!
How are they ever going to pay that back?
I hear you and it's very brave to admit that you live with your olds (and not currently paying yourself much). You wouldn't be the only one.
It's a sorry state of affairs, but this cohabitation inter-generational thing is happening more and more now in the West.
Plus as your parents get old, they inevitably get sick, etc. Many successful types seem to shift this responsibility onto others.
The other thing I find is that social media (instagram) is generally not representive of reality.
Everyone is trying to show only the best bits of their life. They try to make life look easy, only show the smiling shots, you know how it is.
They don't ever show all the work they had to put in to get there. They never want to admit that it's a struggle.
Plenty of people (entrepreneurs and business owners) are doing it very tough, always working behind the scenes.
I agree with what madmax. But also jonnyboy has valid points.
I agree that people generally don't seem to value services/labour fees (as opposed to products).
The trouble with brick&mortar is that I assume most retail brick and mortar shops do not seem to own their premises.
So they have to pay rent. Rent is usually sky-high and is always going to massively eat into your profits.
When I was living in Tenerife, I didn't actually have a shop. It was online only. Initially I sort of I thought along the lines of "why would I want to be stuck in there all day?". That was half of it. The other part was cost. Towards the end I could have got a shop, even picked out a place. But it was just easier and cheaper for me to get a delivery van instead. Having said that, I spent so much on fuel I could have paid for rent with that money. I turned out to be quite a driver!
I was a little naïve and young and stupid at the time, but actually the business took off pretty quickly because in 2006 most people still did not have their own website. I did. And I was really competitive with that aspect. The biggest mistake for me was getting into debt in order to initiate something.
I personally would never do that again (getting a loan to start a business).
Trying to start new fledgling businesses on a shoestring budget.
But the longer you wait or delay, the harder it gets. More competition.
I feel this paying interest on loans is like having some kind of parasite on your back.
Eventually it drains your energy, you get burnout.
Whereas people who don't, have an advantage over you. They're working 5-20% easier than you.
Just look at the US economy now — 33 trillion dollars in debt they are now!
How are they ever going to pay that back?
I fundamentally disagree with this. On the surface it looks like that (see below), but there are many, many people who share and show the grind and that life is full of ying and yang. You just have to look for it, or it'll find you if you're open to that kind of story.
I'd also counter the point that IG by it's very nature is going to predominately show the rosy side of life. So going in with reality glasses will lead to disappointment. In other words, seek what you're looking for where that content exists. And if doesn't exist, create it and see what happens.
Note this is way off topic for the original thread, so let's try and keep it focused to the failing bike industry.
As earlier mentioned, now confirmed, 105 laid off:
https://road.cc/content/news/wiggle-chain-reaction-announce-105-job-cuts-304833
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