Shimano compatibility - or is that insanity?

[Woz]

I've jumped at some new Sora 9 speed STIs ST-R3000 at a great cheap-n-nasty price for an experimantal
MTB drop bar build that I have in pipe. They have both the brake and gear cable concealed under the tape,
looking all modern, despite Campagnolo doing it god knows how many years ago. I digress.

The thinking was I get to use my stash of various 9 speed cassettes, chains and mechs to
keep the price down and have a nice bit of flexibility to change handle bar set-ups if needed or I get
bored. I'm now starting to have doubts....

The 2017 - 2018 Shimano compatibility document is a whopping 42 pages now - I have vague memories
of it being hard to find and consisted of only an handfull of pages what seems only a few years ago.

Now after a good few hours with it and surfing, I'm actually none the wiser if these modern things will work with
10, 9, 8 speed road and/or 9, 8 speed MTB old shit. The FD seems like an issue - accordingly compatible with
absolutely bugger all if I understand right.

I'm used to fudging things with various routing but is it me or are all the cable pulls changing - Sora
now seems to have two uncompatible 9 speed systems :?: :!: :idea: :shock: :roll: :x :idea: :!: :!:

Does anyone here know what's happening, or do I need to get a stiff drink and sleep on it for a while?

 

[The History Man]

I have an old set of 3x9 flight decks, 6500 I think. They work with anything. New hoods, a bit rattly but work perfectly. If you want a simpler solution.

 

[Woz]

Kind offer from you THM, but I will decline. That said, I know these levers well - actually the ST-5500 - they
were one of the last decent 9 speed shifter. Introduced in 1999 according to wikipedia. They have some weaknesses,
and the left shift requires a healthy long push compared to the newer stuff. Getting hold of a decent set compared
to buying newer modern stuff isn't making so much economical sense.

The Tiagra ST-4400 9 speed had known issues so I skipped that BITD and went for 10 speed ST-4600 which
work really well. The first Sora 9 speed ST-3400 had a stupid button instead of a paddle for the upshift, so I
skipped that too. The Sora ST-3500 would probably be a very fine choice for a 9 speed retro-mod in hindsight
as they are similar to the reliable Tiagra ST-4600 according to Shimano's expolded view of the shifter plus you
get some possibility for cable tension adjustment on the fly and there doesn't appear to be any
backward compatibility issues.

I guess on one hand it's difficult to fault Shimano's very predictable trickle down technology which is
good for those who can be patient and have a stash of old stuff.

 

[legrandefromage]

those Sora of yours will work with just about anything MTB/ Road from around 1987 - 2007 and anything marked as '9spd' or '8spd' afterward

where the madness starts to creep in is that you must use road parts for the front shifting as the pull and reach is wrong for MTB mechs.

you must then match the reach and pull of that years groupsets as later or earlier road 9spd front mechs will have a different pull/ reach to your shifters

still with me?

9spd chains work well with old mechs, even as far back as MT-60 Deore.

Its why I use bar-end shifters wherever possible

 

[hamster]

You can get the front shifting to work with an MTB mech if you clamp the cable on the wrong side of the clamp bolt. Filing a notch obviously helps.

 

[Woz]

You can get the front shifting to work with an MTB mech if you clamp the cable on the wrong side of the clamp bolt. Filing a notch obviously helps.

This is exactly what I intend to do with my trusty ever faithfull FD-M565 stash.

I actually have these R3000 now, and the seller was so good to throw in the FD-R3000 in the deal; however
it is braze-on and bottom pull and I need band-on and top-pull of course. :facepalm:

It seems Shimano have extended the arm and made it more vertical
where the cable bolt goes compared to the "old road". I'm a bit miffed that they may not be compatible
with FD-CX70 - whether this is due to cable pull and/or cage width I don't know.

Apparantly, I also need to mess about with all sorts of gubbins on the Sora FD and use (another) special tool in
the eyes of Shimano. What I will actually do is fudge and modify things with a vast collection of old bits
ranging from XTR down to Tourney and if needed, raid the neighbours lawn mower spares box.

I will probably have a couple of beers too while I'm at it just to keep the nerves in check.

 

[Woz]

those Sora of yours will work with just about anything MTB/ Road from around 1987 - 2007 and anything marked as '9spd' or '8spd' afterward

where the madness starts to creep in is that you must use road parts for the front shifting as the pull and reach is wrong for MTB mechs.

you must then match the reach and pull of that years groupsets as later or earlier road 9spd front mechs will have a different pull/ reach to your shifters

still with me?

9spd chains work well with old mechs, even as far back as MT-60 Deore.

Its why I use bar-end shifters wherever possible

I'm with you. And everytime I get ready to buy bar-end shifters, I don't for some odd reason :roll: :facepalm:

 

[hamster]

My goodness, it's amazing how Shimano can go so far up themselves that we get the situation you describe.

Madness, bring back 7 speeds. It just goes to show that they have invented fundamentally nothing in the past 25 years, merely fiddled around the edges.

 

[Woz]

My goodness, it's amazing how Shimano can go so far up themselves that we get the situation you describe.

Madness, bring back 7 speeds. It just goes to show that they have invented fundamentally nothing in the past 25 years, merely fiddled around the edges.

Yup. I'm hoping Shimano have embedded some flex in this stupid closed system and won't fall foul to even more
ridiculous stuff like requiring a chain line of exactly 49.5 MM or need to have the correct chainset with the correct
number of teeth and the correct number of ramps and pins and the correct seat stay angle and the correct
chain stay length and the correct number of solar flairs averaged out since the introduction of this new shit.

Why oh why the immense *uck around for a front shift is beyond me, especially for a low level SORA gruppo! I
mean it's not like Team Kona or Team Sky are going to be wrenching Sora :roll: .

They would have been better to actually dust off a skinny 9 speed MTB FD with lot's of pull and fixing options - something like FD-M571 and the job would have been done and everyone happy.

 

[Dickyboy]

Hmm interested in the cable round the otherside for front mech compatibility - worth a try before forking out £30 for a jtec shiftmate 7, thanks.