Saxon Twin Tube

[Chris770099]

lets try a different avenue of investigation...
This frame number has 6 digits. Saxon numbers up to 1939 had 5 digits latterly starting with an 8 or 9.
Claud Butler frames have a 6 digit number.
The "Saxon TT" was introduced in the Claud Butler catalogue from 1953 and was still in the catalogue in 1956.
The number of this frame could signify 1948 or 1958 in the CB numbering.
The down tube transfer and the head tube are consistent with the CB Saxon TT.
However, as far as I am aware, the CB Saxon TT twin tube are all 50/50...this frame in design is identical to the 1938/1939 designs but the lugs are unusual.
The Weinmann brakes were launched in 1957 and imported into UK from circa 1959.
The dating of the williams C34 chainset could be very informative because whilst the brakes may have been upgraded to CP in the late 50s, as only a single, the chainset is unlikely to have been ugraded.
what a nice little mystery to solve. Anybody else got a view?

 

[OldTel]

Re:

Hi, just some points to consider, the 68 degree seat tube is a pre war angle, the fittings were used from late 30's to the early 50's, but the positions and lack of derailleur brazon's pushes it back into the 30/40's, that fork looks 30/40's. A possible question is what happened to Saxon during the war, did they try to restart after the war, the 40's are the most difficult era's to date, as the mixture of new and old will vary from bike to bike frame. Just some thoughts. Terry

 

[Chris770099]

I agree all your observations re appearance of the frame... The geometry is definately more 1939 than 1953!
I recall in the 70s being told by a former racer that Saxon had been "Bombed in the war" I read that:
"Saxon closed in November 1939 for reasons that are unknown with HHJ Cadell as sole director. The Kenworthy Rd site was totally destroyed during a bombing raid in the Second World War, but the Holloway Road and Arcola Street sites still exist today." Source - Ben Sharp in Lightweight Cycles Catalogues Volume II.
[However the records of bombs dropped in London do not show a mega 'hit' in Kenworthy Road, just a hit adjacent to the end of the road. ]

Could they have continued, albeit at a vastly reduced rate from the other sites? Could they have been forced to make new transfer sets following the bombing of Kenworthy Rd? Might this explain the use of the lugs from different models? As Terry suggests, there are a lot of unanswered questions surrounding the war years and the year immediately afterwards... which i suspect will never be answered. Nice bike nevertheless.

 

[Chris770099]

Re:

Just for completeness, here is a copy of the 1953 Catalogue entry for the Saxon Twin Tube TT model. you can see the different geometry and the much shorter twin tubes. unfortunately I suspect the resolution is not good enough to see it, but the transfers are the same as on your bike...

 

[stevevw]

Adam Hill may have bought the Saxon name from Claud Butler in the 50's

"Following the recession in the cycle trade in the late 1950s Adam heard that his friend Claud Butler was in financial difficulties and drove down to London and purchased the tools and the goodwill of the business from him. It is possible that Adam also bought the rights to the Saxon name as some twin tube frames were later built but the current ownership of this name is not known."

http://www.hill-special.co.uk/index.html

 

[Chris770099]

Interesting. I was aware from a potted history of Hill Specials that the saxon name and twin tube design may have passed through Adam Hill's ownership in the late 1950s. The history on this website is more definitive and sounds very credibile. Would love to see a picture of a twin tube Hill Special if anybody out there has one.

 

[Ollie]

Absolutely gorgeous :shock: . Please don't respray it though , looks great as it is :? .

 

[Tel]

Re:

Manage to find five minutes to have a further look at this today and I found the number 0663 stamped onto the drive side dropout. Does this help at all?

 

[Chris770099]

the mystery thickens...
The Geometry is consistent with the 38/39 frame, but the head lugs are consistent with the slightly earlier Saxons.
26" wheels are more likely to be pre war...
The frame number is NOT consistent with the 38/39 Saxons, nor is it consistent with Claud Butler numbering (admittedly on different geometry twin tube frames)
The transfers are of post war vintage which is not necessarily totally definitive. (eg I had a pre war Saxon that had been resprayed in the 50s with these transfers.)
Save for the headset which is consistent with pre-war frames, the componentry is more aligned with post war than pre war (but components may have been changed).

So, in conclusion, I think you have got an extremely rare machine, probably produced in the period after it is thought Saxon had ceased trading, from tubes/lug sets which survived the bombing... which Is pretty much what I think Retro Guru Terry was concluding back in November.

I would not respray whatever you do, you would drastically reduce the value of this frame.

 

[biggs682]

doh !