If you want photos of Gioses er Gio..Gioss. Whatever.
http://www.giostorino.it/registro-stori ... l-registro
http://www.giostorino.it/registro-stori ... l-registro
Road Frames c.1975-85.. Un-vague us!
- Thread starter torqueless
- Start date
torqueless
Senior Retro Guru
Re:
Ah... Thanks again DSH. Concerning Gios (Someone'll have to ask an Italian for the plural) consider Torqueless thoroughly un-vagued!! I shall retire to tabulate my findings..
Ah... Thanks again DSH. Concerning Gios (Someone'll have to ask an Italian for the plural) consider Torqueless thoroughly un-vagued!! I shall retire to tabulate my findings..
torqueless
Senior Retro Guru
Re:
Note: This post is about the bikes in the Gios register. I don't wish to be taken out of context and accused of asserting, for example, that Gios invented brazed on gear lever bosses!
I guess for the purposes of this enquiry the logical bike to start with in the Gios register is No.043. If I am interpreting the Italian correctly, that is a bike ridden by Patrick Sercu in the 1973 season- the first season of the Gios/Brooklyn team? If that is so, chances are that the frame was built early in 1973. It has brazed-on top tube tunnels and bottle cage bosses, but has band-on gear levers.
Yet No.071, also a 1973 frame- possibly late '73?- has brazed-on gear levers. Is this evidence that Gios introduced brazed-on gear levers- which seem to have remained a Gios feature thenceforward- some time in 1973?
Interestingly the Sercu machine No.043 has that slightly 'gappy' (by later standards) look around the brakes which suggests a brake drop of around 50-52mm, designed for 'standard drop' (47-57mm?) brakes, whereas No.071 looks tighter in the same area. Is this evidence that short drop brakes were also introduced in 1973, and frame geometry modified to accomodate them? Certainly by 1974 the brake clearances on Gios frames in the register have reduced, compared to the Sercu frame.
Related question- are 'short drop' (42-52mm?) brakes the same thing as 'piccolo' brakes, or does the word 'piccolo' properly denote a later, further shortening? (39-49mm)
Moving on through the seventies, short dropouts definitively replace long dropouts in 1976. i.e. there are no long dropouts in evidence after 1975.
It seems we have to wait until 1980 before we get allen key brakes on a Gios, and until 1983 before we get under-the-bracket cable routing.
Note: This post is about the bikes in the Gios register. I don't wish to be taken out of context and accused of asserting, for example, that Gios invented brazed on gear lever bosses!
I guess for the purposes of this enquiry the logical bike to start with in the Gios register is No.043. If I am interpreting the Italian correctly, that is a bike ridden by Patrick Sercu in the 1973 season- the first season of the Gios/Brooklyn team? If that is so, chances are that the frame was built early in 1973. It has brazed-on top tube tunnels and bottle cage bosses, but has band-on gear levers.
Yet No.071, also a 1973 frame- possibly late '73?- has brazed-on gear levers. Is this evidence that Gios introduced brazed-on gear levers- which seem to have remained a Gios feature thenceforward- some time in 1973?
Interestingly the Sercu machine No.043 has that slightly 'gappy' (by later standards) look around the brakes which suggests a brake drop of around 50-52mm, designed for 'standard drop' (47-57mm?) brakes, whereas No.071 looks tighter in the same area. Is this evidence that short drop brakes were also introduced in 1973, and frame geometry modified to accomodate them? Certainly by 1974 the brake clearances on Gios frames in the register have reduced, compared to the Sercu frame.
Related question- are 'short drop' (42-52mm?) brakes the same thing as 'piccolo' brakes, or does the word 'piccolo' properly denote a later, further shortening? (39-49mm)
Moving on through the seventies, short dropouts definitively replace long dropouts in 1976. i.e. there are no long dropouts in evidence after 1975.
It seems we have to wait until 1980 before we get allen key brakes on a Gios, and until 1983 before we get under-the-bracket cable routing.
Re:
I'm getting slightly confused as to what this thread is trying to achieve (and I mean this in a genuine, nice way)
For example, the timeline has seat tube bottle bosses @ '69 a la the Faema photo, but in reality they only became common for both massed produced (eg my 83 Raleigh gran sport still has no seat tube bosses) and for bespoke frames around about 83/84.
So my question is - is the thread looking at when things were first out (even if this was a one-off for a pro team) or when things typically happened frame wise, out there ?
I'm getting slightly confused as to what this thread is trying to achieve (and I mean this in a genuine, nice way)
For example, the timeline has seat tube bottle bosses @ '69 a la the Faema photo, but in reality they only became common for both massed produced (eg my 83 Raleigh gran sport still has no seat tube bosses) and for bespoke frames around about 83/84.
So my question is - is the thread looking at when things were first out (even if this was a one-off for a pro team) or when things typically happened frame wise, out there ?
torqueless
Senior Retro Guru
Re:
If it is achieving anything it is the recognition that pesky messy reality refuses to fit neatly into boxes and timelines. I am learning stuff, anyway. I cannot speak for anyone else.
You and me both, Pigman..
If it is achieving anything it is the recognition that pesky messy reality refuses to fit neatly into boxes and timelines. I am learning stuff, anyway. I cannot speak for anyone else.
Sort of both? I was mainly hoping to establish 'not before' dates for the frame details of peloton machines, which also implies 'not after' dates. As far as I am aware, nobody would build a peloton-destined frame with- for example- long dropouts after 1977, at the latest. Maybe 'after 1975' is more accurate?
torqueless
Senior Retro Guru
Re:
Also been looking at this: http://velosvintage.over-blog.com/artic ... 79381.html
I think some of those bikes are genuinely from the year they are associated with, and even ex-team bikes, but others are not, or have accumulated anachronisms during the restoration. The De Vlaeminck '1976' Gios has white panels, for example, which afaik did not appear on a Gios until 1978? The bike also seems to have allen-key brakes, which I cannot find in the Gios register before 1977, so I reckon that is a '78 frame or after.
Related question: What was the 'not before' year for brazed-on race-number lugs?
Bottle cage bosses do seem to occur throughout the '70s, but I'd rather see some period pictures to be sure.. In the small picture of Poulidor on his bike, he does seem to be still using a band-on bottle cage.
This one: http://velosvintage.over-blog.com/2016/ ... -1975.html had me thinking that Zeus were doing allen-key centre-pull brakes in 1975, until I blew up the 'before restoration' photo and saw that the brakes were nutted. So... you know.. something has gone on there... making you wonder what has gone on elsewhere?
The 1977 Frisol Gazelle (at the first link) looks like it might be genuine. It has a race-number lug. It also has Zeus allen-key brakes and it seems to have under BB cable routing.. although there is a suspicious discolouration around the chainstay cable-stop area that makes you think it might've been changed..
Correction- I just had another look at the register and found '77 and '78 bikes with allen key brakes- number 038, for example.
Also been looking at this: http://velosvintage.over-blog.com/artic ... 79381.html
I think some of those bikes are genuinely from the year they are associated with, and even ex-team bikes, but others are not, or have accumulated anachronisms during the restoration. The De Vlaeminck '1976' Gios has white panels, for example, which afaik did not appear on a Gios until 1978? The bike also seems to have allen-key brakes, which I cannot find in the Gios register before 1977, so I reckon that is a '78 frame or after.
Related question: What was the 'not before' year for brazed-on race-number lugs?
Bottle cage bosses do seem to occur throughout the '70s, but I'd rather see some period pictures to be sure.. In the small picture of Poulidor on his bike, he does seem to be still using a band-on bottle cage.
This one: http://velosvintage.over-blog.com/2016/ ... -1975.html had me thinking that Zeus were doing allen-key centre-pull brakes in 1975, until I blew up the 'before restoration' photo and saw that the brakes were nutted. So... you know.. something has gone on there... making you wonder what has gone on elsewhere?
The 1977 Frisol Gazelle (at the first link) looks like it might be genuine. It has a race-number lug. It also has Zeus allen-key brakes and it seems to have under BB cable routing.. although there is a suspicious discolouration around the chainstay cable-stop area that makes you think it might've been changed..
torqueless
Senior Retro Guru
Re:
Concerning bottle-cage bosses, gear lever bosses, top tube cable tunnels, and race-number lugs:
I was assuming, perhaps again incorrectly or simplistically, that, although these braze-ons are in evidence on earlier bikes, in the late sixties everything was band-on to the three main tubes. We have roadking's as yet unconfirmed sighting of Eddy Merckx in '69 using brazed-on bottle cage bosses to both down tube and seat tube. At this link-
http://velosvintage.over-blog.com/artic ... 79381.html
we can see what is ostensibly a '69 Merckx with down tube bottle-cage bosses, but that bike is not necessarily original. Just below, (at the same link) is the 1972(?) Ferretti, which does look to be unrestored and in original paint. Obviously, neither of those pictures are in the preferred format of 'incontestable period picture of rider with bike'..
On the 'incontestable period picture...' front, I found a 1973 picture of Franco Bitossi-(Sammontana) with brazed-on bottle cage bosses, http://www.bikeraceinfo.com/photo-galle ... ranco.html
and a 1973 picture of Felice Gimondi-(Bianchi) with both brazed-on bottle cage bosses, and (i think) gear levers and maybe top tube tunnels too.
http://www.bikeraceinfo.com/photo-galle ... elice.html
And here is Luis Ocana in 1973-with brazed-on gear levers and bottle cage bosses, band on race number and rear brake cable:
http://classiclightweights.net/france/m ... otobecane/
Then, going back to sniff out the Ferretti trail, I found this: http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vinta ... -long.html
Scroll down to check out the period pictures. Nobody on that thread has identified the year of the picture(s) of Gosta Pettersson. He is in the Maglia Rosa so one could assume '71, but afaik he could've been wearing it in '70 or '72 as well. Can any Retrobike detectives positively ID the year?
See also: http://bikeadelic.blogspot.co.uk/2011/0 ... -1970.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sort of answering my own question about Campag. brakes:
"The brakes are available in two stirrup depths, the original 'standard' being suitable for clearances fo(sic) 46-58mm and the more recent shallower version, named the 'piccolo', for the latest 'close clearance' frames with a 41-53mm range."
-From 1981 Holdsworthy Bike Riders Aids.
...and I should probably re-title this thread: ".....1969-85"..
Concerning bottle-cage bosses, gear lever bosses, top tube cable tunnels, and race-number lugs:
I was assuming, perhaps again incorrectly or simplistically, that, although these braze-ons are in evidence on earlier bikes, in the late sixties everything was band-on to the three main tubes. We have roadking's as yet unconfirmed sighting of Eddy Merckx in '69 using brazed-on bottle cage bosses to both down tube and seat tube. At this link-
http://velosvintage.over-blog.com/artic ... 79381.html
we can see what is ostensibly a '69 Merckx with down tube bottle-cage bosses, but that bike is not necessarily original. Just below, (at the same link) is the 1972(?) Ferretti, which does look to be unrestored and in original paint. Obviously, neither of those pictures are in the preferred format of 'incontestable period picture of rider with bike'..
On the 'incontestable period picture...' front, I found a 1973 picture of Franco Bitossi-(Sammontana) with brazed-on bottle cage bosses, http://www.bikeraceinfo.com/photo-galle ... ranco.html
and a 1973 picture of Felice Gimondi-(Bianchi) with both brazed-on bottle cage bosses, and (i think) gear levers and maybe top tube tunnels too.
http://www.bikeraceinfo.com/photo-galle ... elice.html
And here is Luis Ocana in 1973-with brazed-on gear levers and bottle cage bosses, band on race number and rear brake cable:
http://classiclightweights.net/france/m ... otobecane/
Then, going back to sniff out the Ferretti trail, I found this: http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vinta ... -long.html
Scroll down to check out the period pictures. Nobody on that thread has identified the year of the picture(s) of Gosta Pettersson. He is in the Maglia Rosa so one could assume '71, but afaik he could've been wearing it in '70 or '72 as well. Can any Retrobike detectives positively ID the year?
See also: http://bikeadelic.blogspot.co.uk/2011/0 ... -1970.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sort of answering my own question about Campag. brakes:
"The brakes are available in two stirrup depths, the original 'standard' being suitable for clearances fo(sic) 46-58mm and the more recent shallower version, named the 'piccolo', for the latest 'close clearance' frames with a 41-53mm range."
-From 1981 Holdsworthy Bike Riders Aids.
...and I should probably re-title this thread: ".....1969-85"..
VeloFellow54
Old School Hero
Again - very late to post on this thread - and this really is not my area of expertise, But.... My late 1979 / early 1980 Allin Stan Butler Special ( date provided by Roadking - Many Thanks !) has both twin Simplex braze ons for gear levers and a pair of braze on bottle cage bosses also. (Photo of this machine on another thread under Allin). Whether this is relevant to this thread is another matter......but I feel certain that someone on here will decide if this is the case !
Re:
I dig this thread out as it really helps recalling frame braze-ons features chronology.
Couple of things though:
1970 Masi Gran Criterium - with a double plate crown fork, sports brazed on down-tube shifters.
As for the bottom bracket gear cable guides, as DSH mentioned, 1979 Peugeot featured a combination of brazed on above and below cable guides respectively for the rear and front mech. However 1980 Peugeot PX10 had a screwed plastic cable guide under the bottom bracket for both front and rear derailleurs.
I dig this thread out as it really helps recalling frame braze-ons features chronology.
Couple of things though:
1970 Masi Gran Criterium - with a double plate crown fork, sports brazed on down-tube shifters.
As for the bottom bracket gear cable guides, as DSH mentioned, 1979 Peugeot featured a combination of brazed on above and below cable guides respectively for the rear and front mech. However 1980 Peugeot PX10 had a screwed plastic cable guide under the bottom bracket for both front and rear derailleurs.
torqueless
Senior Retro Guru
Re:
Thanks zidortri. I don't know if you had a look at the bikeforums link in my post above? Lots of Masi content there. It does seem that Masi were doing some of this stuff possibly before the '70s even started!
...and I'll take the liberty of linking across to your beautifully restored Giuseppi Pela before our threads sink (back) into archive oblivion:
http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewto ... p;t=410243
Thanks zidortri. I don't know if you had a look at the bikeforums link in my post above? Lots of Masi content there. It does seem that Masi were doing some of this stuff possibly before the '70s even started!
...and I'll take the liberty of linking across to your beautifully restored Giuseppi Pela before our threads sink (back) into archive oblivion:
http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewto ... p;t=410243
Similar threads
