Road Frames c.1975-85.. Un-vague us!

[torqueless]

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Er... well.... thanks stefthehat for clarification on the Gios (I won't attempt a plural.. ) and thanks roadking for giving us the benefit of your archive. I used to have a little stack of ICS (repeat parenthesis as above) myself once upon a time, covering the last four years of the seventies. They mysteriously disappeared around thirty years ago when my parents retired and 'downsized'.

So roadking- are you saying that you have a bona fide period picture of Merckx with/on a bike sporting two pairs of brazed on bottle cages, one pair on the downtube and one pair on the seat tube? a 1969 picture to boot, even before Molteni? If so, that really puts the cat amongst my timeline pigeons- but I guess Merckx could get just about whatever little thing he wanted bike-wise, maybe even in 1969..

 

[stefthehat]

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No finite proof {pics etc}to back this up but going by british frames ive owned from the period and what came out of small shops here{and bigger like Holdsworth}we held on a bit longer to using clip-on{bolt-on? }fittings instead of actual braze-on's longer than continental frames which could skew working out time-lines,maybe frame braze ons were made by Italian companies and were picked up on by their frame builders first etc

 

[torqueless]

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Yeah I think that is somewhat true. Not so much with time-trial machines, but with massed start machines since the post-war period Britland has been taking its cues from the continent, and so has usually been a year or so behind. I've seen Holdsworth Pros from the mid-'70s that lack any BB cable tunnels- they need that chrome clip on the downtube. Afaict most Italian machines of that sort of calibre had brazed on tunnels since the early '70s. They are a pig to braze, so I heard- two little bits of easily scorched metal which need attaching to a (relatively) massive heat-sucking casting...

 

[roadking]

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So roadking- are you saying that you have a bona fide period picture of Merckx with/on a bike sporting two pairs of brazed on bottle cages, one pair on the downtube and one pair on the seat tube? a 1969 picture to boot, even before Molteni? If so, that really puts the cat amongst my timeline pigeons- but I guess Merckx could get just about whatever little thing he wanted bike-wise, maybe even in 1969..

I did say that, so yes: and 1969 is regarded as Merckx's finest season.

And with regard to English frames...apropos stefthehat's comment...as mentioned previously on this thread my 1964 Allin Belgique was available with braze-ons for a cage* - I have the original pricing and my frame was £18 seven shillings and sixpence.

Facts/evidence always speaks loudest.

Jon.

*not too much to stretch the imagination to one on the downtube !

 

[torqueless]

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I did say that

If the picture is included in a publication, could you tell us the title?

Understand me, roadking- In my first post on this thread I (thought I) took pains to point out that I'm not saying that nobody had heard of braze-ons before 1970. These things go in and out of fashion, in 'cycles' :roll: . Some people are healthily oblivious to fashion.

There might have been an economic element involved too, as Midlife suggested, and things being what they are, some people (or some bicycle-racing teams) are always better placed to withstand economic contingencies than others.

What I am saying is that in the world of massed-start bike racing, braze-ons seemed to be out of fashion in the early '70s and to return to favour as the decade wore on, along with a few other 'innovations' into the '80s. I'm just trying to get a fix on the timing.

 

[stefthehat]

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Maybe someone on here has a copy of the new{ish}Merckx book Merckx'69 and can look through images,not sure which bike of obv many but the Faema '69 tour bike at last year's exhibition at the Design museum still had bolt on bottle mounts{single}

 

[roadking]

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Maybe someone on here has a copy of the new{ish}Merckx book Merckx'69...

That someone on here is me :facepalm: ; I have a copy of the book. There was more than one bicycle used on that tour and I refer you to the two books cited in my first post. Given your comment, are you saying that bicycle is one of the actual machines EM rode or a mere copy/replica - do you know the answer to this question ?

Jon.

 

[stefthehat]

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Sorry missed previos reference to the '69 book,The bike was labelled as one of his bikes but don't know where it was sourced from etc

 

[torqueless]

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I don't think there was a previous reference to that book?

I refer you to the two books cited in my first post

I believe roadking is referring to the two French books, one of which contains the picture. That's not to say the selfsame picture isn't reproduced in the Merckx '69 book?

It was actually your second post, roadking

 

[DSH]

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A "brave" initiative!

I think you are spot on concerning recessed fittings on the brakes, 1978 seems to have been the launch year for Campag with others following over the next few years. The frame on my PY10 dates from July 79 but it is built to 1980 spec and that includes nutted Spidel brakes.

Braze on top tube brake cables guides appear on Gios bikes from 1973-74. I'd be happy to spend a couple of hours watching a Sunday in Hell to see who else has them

Concerning cable guides above or below bottom bracket: the PY10 has one of each: vive La France! Front runs above rear runs below.