Retro bikes versus New bikes. (Have bikes really improved?)

[GrahamJohnWallace]

It's fun to track stand half way down and look at the view, though following bikes don't seem to appreciate the therapeutic value of this. Modern hydraulic, disk break bikes, tend to slide down with their rear wheels locked, and picking up speed as they go.

What a pile o tosh, all your stating is rider skill, what you describe has been done with everything from four pots and 203 roters to wellies on a wheel and everything in between.

Roller brakes............ Pah

I would be fascinated to hear about your experience of RollerBrakes?

 

[sastusbulbas]

I'm 38 not 8

Edit,
Though your own experience of modern discs seems even poorer than my experience with rollers LOL

 

[FairfaxPat]

You know, there is a reason why modern cars, motorcycles and MTB use disc brakes-because they work much better! You obviously haven't tried high quality modern disc's aside from the Hayes brakes-they must not be very good, try Shimano XT or XTR instead. Those tubes you use that are very thick are also very heavy-if you go tubeless you achieve the low pressures you desire with much less weight=easier, faster. Aside from the Conti's I am now using, the Panaracer Fire XC Pro Tubeless tire is a great all round tire at 770 grams and I have used them for years with none of the problems you describe.

 

[scottrider]

well this is just my opion so dont get mad..lol...i think old bikes have some sort of soul, maybe its the time in life they remind you of....some of them were quite good, but modern full sus bikes have let me do things i wouldn't have been able to do on a older bike....i love my carbon scott, it my fav colour and every thing...however, id say 75% of modern bikes suck.. because there all the same, whats the difference between the latest trek and specialised...sod all...it takes so long to find something a bit different these days..litely it took weeks to decide to get a scott spark..funy though ther were only about 4 bikes i even considered..the rest all looked the same and i didnt want that....many company's have a very different idea wat full carbon means, apart from scott, they make every last part from it.....yay..lol..

 

[sastusbulbas]

Yip, teh above has a good point, personal opinion and preference are huge parts in opinion.

 

[GrahamJohnWallace]

You know, there is a reason why modern cars, motorcycles and MTB use disc brakes-because, they work much better! You obviously haven't tried high quality modern disc's aside from the Hayes brakes-they must not be very good, try Shimano XT or XTR instead. Those tubes you use that are very thick are also very heavy-if you go tubeless you achieve the low pressures you desire with much less weight=easier, faster. Aside from the Conti's I am now using, the Panaracer Fire XC Pro Tubeless tire is a great all round tire at 770 grams and I have used them for years with none of the problems you describe.

Thanks for the info. I have been trying different brake setups, tyres etc for years. Because the local conditions here can be very wet muddy and slippy here I probably have a different take on what I expect from a bike. You will still find Hub brakes on a modern jeep or tractor because there, reliability is more important than weight.

I often ask "what are the most progressive disk brakes?" when I go into a bicycle shop, In the hope of finding something that fits my requirements. But have so far been disappointed with what they show me. I have tried the XTRs, and they are much better than the Hayes and the Giant MPHs that I currently have on my own bikes. But they still fall short of what I'm used to in terms of hub brake modulation. I have even tried deliberately putting air into the hydraulic fluid, which is no doubt a very dodgy way to make the brakes more springy. I like the idea of cable activated disks with all that progressive cable stretch. However these have one fixed shoe and one moving shoe, so most of the brake lever movement is taken up in warping the disk towards the fixed shoe.

I also have a large collection of modern tyres. One of my favorite is the WTB' NanoRaptor which can be run at a very low pressures and whose tread pattern has some characteristics in common with the Cleland's Nokia tyres.

 

[GrahamJohnWallace]

If you think a Cleland should go head to head with a '92 Clockwork, carry on.

I'd love to see something like this...

The new vs. old thing is quite interesting for a newcomer to (retro)bikes (OK, I had that '93 Kona but the inbetween years kinda nullify that)..

I have never ridden a 92 Clockwork but would guess that it's a well sorted and lightweight machine similar to many I have ridden along side over the years. I would expect the Clockwork to win unless the course was designed to favor the Cleland's strengths in conditions like soft sand and thick mud. I would expect the Clockwork to climb faster though the Cleland may have the edge during a short steep out of the saddle climb. Remember the Cleland was never intended to be raced. It is an off-road tourer designed to plough on whatever the weather or terrain.

We may be able put it through its paces at the OWMBC meeting in September.

 

[FairfaxPat]

You know, modern Jeeps have disc's up front, and the only reason they aren't on the back is because of cost-rear disc's with a parking brake setup are more expensive to produce. As for reliability-What do you mean, drums are more reliable than discs? I Think Not! Also, please, don't add air to your hydraulic lines because you are just disabling the brake by doing that. The end result is spongy at best, no brakes at the worst. The feel you are looking for sounds to me like you want the lever to travel a long ways and gradually add pressure and stop just before bottoming out at the bars. This is easy to achieve with cable brakes-hub or disc-because the cable will stretch somewhat and give you that feel you like. However, hydraulic disc's will Modulate Just As Well as your old cable brakes, the levers just don't travel as far and they don't feel spongy like a cable does. The other big advantage to hydraulics is the power factor, two fingers all the way down the mountain-- couldn't do that with any cable brake, my hand used to go numb about half-way down! I think you are just so used to that particular feel that other systems don't seem as good to you, when in fact they work great, just don't feel the same. And we, as humans are prone to like what we are used to more often than not!

 

[GrahamJohnWallace]

I think you are just so used to that particular feel that other systems don't seem as good to you, when in fact they work great, just don't feel the same. And we, as humans are prone to like what we are used to more often than not!

I take your point about being used to a particular feel and that you could indeed modulate the brakes well without using the entire lever travel. I would need to spend some time using one of the better disk brake designs to work this out.

On the subject of Hub brake reliability, my 1988 Highpath' rear floating cam brake is still using its original shoes and the only maintenance it has received is the occasional dust out and cable tighten. This is fitted to my most heavily used and abused, off-road bike. I can't comment about other makes of brake but these are reputed to be the best of the old style hub brakes. I also thought that the reason that many 4x4s have rear hub brakes is because of all the muck thrown off the front wheels. The car's front disks are more powerful, do more of the work and have better cooling characteristics. So I do agree that disks offer the better theoretical solution.

 

[mechagouki]

I like the idea of cable activated disks with all that progressive cable stretch. However these have one fixed shoe and one moving shoe, so most of the brake lever movement is taken up in warping the disk towards the fixed shoe.

Actually, if you set them up right there need be very little warping of the rotor - you have Hayes already and the one good thing I can say about Hayes is their rotors hold true better then most brands (I'm not including composite rotors in that comparison by the way - center lock XTR rotors are a league above most everything else). With a rotor that is true you can set the fixed pad up so it is almost touching the rotor, then set your outboard pad up at a distance from the rotor that gives you the progression and lever-feel you desire.

Hayes deserve credit for being an early pioneer of modern mtb disc braking, unfortunately they have not evolved their products fast enough to compare well to the likes of SRAM (Avid) and Shimano.

Early Hutchinson tubeless were plagued with sidewall problems - they did not consider the support given to a tire sidewall by the inner tube. Newer tubeless tires have sidewalls engineered to compensate for lack of tube and deal with the deformation that occurs at low psi.