Retro Bikes of Quality

[Elev12k]

I think some of you are tying yourselves in knots trying to tie down something that doesn’t need to be.

It’s not a competition about which bike is best, just a thread to show off great bikes. If you have to ask yourself is it quality?, chances are it’s not (like that green homemade thing).

Rather than spamming on about definitions, let’s hear and see more about quality brazed steel. Like Elev, I’ve got a real respect for Japanese lugged machines, and the Panasonics stand out.

Elev – what’s the significance of silver brazing? Am I right in thinking that using it keeps the heat down which is good for heat treated tubing like Prestige and 753?

Also, in the late 80’s, early 90’s many good frames were brazed in Japan for the likes of Bridgestone, Specialized, & GT: it would be great to know who the best builders were. I’ve heard Toyo quoted a lot, but there must be a broader range?

Any way here’s a sweet 87 MC from this forum:

http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewto ... =panasonic


And some pics of a ‘92

http://picasaweb.google.com/scarsgo/1992PanasonicMCTeam?feat=flashslideshow#5221037973532054162


And indulgently, the best bit of my ’88 Team Stumpjumper:

I see 'I believe in fixies' covered the 1st bit very well.

That '92 MC-Team I remember from the German eBay from a couple years ago. Pity is it is not fully original: check the Marin Lite brakes, headset, seat for example. It can be considered rare. I am happy to own its road equivilent PR-6000. Read about it here. It uses equal diameter tubing in front triangle. The frame is light and very responsive. My particular frame (custom built) is suited for more day races in the 1st place. For short rides I still prefer my more criterium style Dutch bikes.

In 70s Japanses made huge leaps. By 1980 the labour costs were same is in US or Europe, but the favourable Yen was still a fact. The Japanese had to compete on quality to survive into the future and they did. In the 80s Japanese mass manufacturing was the best there excisted.

Good makes are:
Panasonic
Kuwahara
Miyata
Bridgestone

Toyo was a small shop that built Ritcheys, Rockys, Bike-Techs and so on. They do have an own brand: Testach.

Druing the 90s the Taiwanese took over and bicycle industry had changed by the very innovative MTB movement, concentration, use of low cost generic parts and much more.

 

[Dr S]

I would be interesting to know how the industry and our bikes would have looked like if the mountainbike wasn't an American invention and the US market wasn't as dominant. Unfortunataly we can only philosphize about that.

The French were riding bikes off road at the turn of the last century, in the UK returnees from the trenches were storming the passes in the 1920's and every kid from the 60's and 70's can tell stories of riding modified wide bar'd bikes around the woods. Europeans built the very best road bikes in the latter part of the 20th century, so why did we leave it to the Americans to 'invent' Mountain Biking and to make millions of dollars in the process? We had the experience and the facilities but did we lack vision and ambition?

How different would the bikes be?

 

[andrewl]

I would be interesting to know how the industry and our bikes would have looked like if the mountainbike wasn't an American invention and the US market wasn't as dominant. Unfortunataly we can only philosphize about that.

I'm not sure it would look that much different to what it is today. the US market and patent laws which go solely with this market has created a number of different rear suspension setups which may not have been created to get around patents such as HL/FSR as an example.

The US may be a big part of the market but it's also prone to some developmental dead ends too. Linkage forks for example were proven to be garbage in the motorcycle world decades before the mountain bike came along, yet it the mountain bike world we spent many years trying them before dumping them too.

 

[andrewl]

I would be interesting to know how the industry and our bikes would have looked like if the mountainbike wasn't an American invention and the US market wasn't as dominant. Unfortunataly we can only philosphize about that.

The French were riding bikes off road at the turn of the last century, in the UK returnees from the trenches were storming the passes in the 1920's and every kid from the 60's and 70's can tell stories of riding modified wide bar'd bikes around the woods. Europeans built the very best road bikes in the latter part of the 20th century, so why did we leave it to the Americans to 'invent' Mountain Biking and to make millions of dollars in the process? We had the experience and the facilities but did we lack vision and ambition?

How different would the bikes be?

I'm not sure the political climate in the UK in the late 70s early 80s when mountain biking took off in the states was really conducive to the development of a "free spirited" craze.

Considering how little bikes have changed in the last say 5 years, I'd say we would have ended up in the same place, maybe just by a different route

 

[Elev12k]

I would be interesting to know how the industry and our bikes would have looked like if the mountainbike wasn't an American invention and the US market wasn't as dominant. Unfortunataly we can only philosphize about that.

The French were riding bikes off road at the turn of the last century, in the UK returnees from the trenches were storming the passes in the 1920's and every kid from the 60's and 70's can tell stories of riding modified wide bar'd bikes around the woods. Europeans built the very best road bikes in the latter part of the 20th century, so why did we leave it to the Americans to 'invent' Mountain Biking and to make millions of dollars in the process? We had the experience and the facilities but did we lack vision and ambition?

How different would the bikes be?

Maybe they didn’t want us to buy ‘new’ each year?

America’s mojo is consumption. The whole US economy is based around that. Consumption roughly counts for 60% of the GDP. Trow away, buy new, trow away, buy new …is the cyclus that keeps everything going. For example the Manitou FS is a clear materialization of this. Of course in the ads it represents the ‘American Dream’: Downhilling down the mountain, the sun reflecting in your mirror shine chassis, beating the imaginary pro. The experience wouldn’t last long however. As soon as the bumper made of rubber wore out or another flaw came apparent the only direction you could go on your tin foil chassis was right into your tomb. That shouldn’t happen, so you bought new. Good for the sponsored pro battling for the title, but are the normal people well served with that??? Only fools have concerns about that. Better make some money out it. This concept also trickled down to the 1001 mountain bike spin offs that were made up. An original MTB you will only see on Retrobike nowadays. It also trickled down to us usually very traditional Europeans cyclists. We are supposed to believe that everything is dated within a blink of the eye and our products got to complex to run economically for a decent while. It is an entirely other perspective this time, but therefore I think bikes like the Manitou FS are a milestone achievement.

As a bike of quality, its importance cannot be underestimated.

 

[mikee]

i think in this country we dont have the foresight to comercalise things
americans seem a lot more open to ideas and thus investment

we have a history of industry that told us we didn't want inovative/gimmicky products

so we plodded on believing the japanese motorcycle industry
was just a flash in the pan along with cars domestic appliances
and bicycles

 

[NickD]

To clear up some of the questions, or maybe to confus further, quality means, in respect to manufactured items (IMHO)

character with respect to fineness, or grade of excellence

Therefore a badly manufactured frame, however innovative, cannot be of high quality.

For example, Breezer no.1 could be very well made, or quite roughly made (I don't know either way for certain, in common with most people in theis thread), neither would change it's place as an innovative bike, but it could not be quality if poorly made.

On the other hand, a run on the mill, derivative, mid-high end bike could still be a quality bike, but would add very little to our hobby in terms of new ideas.

IMO the thread title is a misnomer. Bikes of distinction fits what I believe the thread is about.

 

[mfh126]

America’s mojo is consumption. The whole US economy is based around that. Consumption roughly counts for 60% of the GDP. Trow away, buy new, trow away, buy new …is the cyclus that keeps everything going.

Pretty broad generalization, don't ya think? Actually, personal consumption represents 70% of the US GDP. But conumption of goods (you know the stuff we "trow away") only represents roughly 23% of the GDP, whereas consumption of services represents 47%. Comparitively, personal consumption represents 65% of the UK GDP. Before you generalize, please check your facts.

 

[Bensherman]

I love this thread, but I think NickD has just summed up this thread for me. Surely this thread is to show the various leaps in bike design in the sport we love. Or is it to show quality of welds or other fine/fancy way of doing things? Perhaps just to show how innovative certain individuals could be?


Matt

 

[Elev12k]

America’s mojo is consumption. The whole US economy is based around that. Consumption roughly counts for 60% of the GDP. Trow away, buy new, trow away, buy new …is the cyclus that keeps everything going.

Pretty broad generalization, don't ya think? Actually, personal consumption represents 70% of the US GDP. But conumption of goods (you know the stuff we "trow away") only represents roughly 23% of the GDP, whereas consumption of services represents 47%. Comparitively, personal consumption represents 65% of the UK GDP. Before you generalize, please check your facts.

It was a very lousy attempt by me doing some amateur-philisophizing about questions that were brought up earlier, but such highly questionable and absurd assumptions do not belong on a quality bicycle forums populated by nice, kind people. You are right. First of all, what applies to the masses does not automaticly apply to each individual person. Secondly, I should also have checked the figures better. I am sorry.

You're all warned. Next fool talking the spoken equivilent of diarrhea like I did in my previous post risks I'll have to lock the thread.