Public sector strikes on Wednesday

[Neil]

Neil,
Whatever New labour inherited they took it to a whole new level of financial mismanagement and book cooking so they could keep the votes in their strongholds pouring in. I just hope that Labour do not get back in the next time.

You can say whatever all you like - and I'm not here defending labour / Blair or Brown - I'm just saying you're making something party political, when it isn't. PFI was created way before Blair got to number 10, and where this specific case is concerned, do you seriously contend that conservatives would have called stop or not done this?

 

[Baron von Trumpen Bottom]

Not disputing the fact PFI wasnt in place before 1997 however labour ripped the arse out of it might have been useful in certain programmes but not to the extent were it's being used to build schools Which local authorities should be doing instead of stashing money away in Icelandic banks then claiming they have no money to spare.

As for the torys using PFI had they stayed in power I don't know. Would we have announced to the world we were selling off the gold resverve then let the price fall on the back of it then flog it at a low price. A brilliant peice of of Fiscal management by the son of the manse!

 

[brocklanders023]

I'd call a public sector attitude one with an air of entitlement totally divorced from reality, not to mention a hugely over-inflated sense of self worth.

If I put 11% of my salary aside each month i'd have to choose between eating and paying the mortgage. That's what it means to not be able to afford something.

I'm 28, and like most of my peers i've never had a pension, can't afford it. Are you telling me, with a straight face, that despite that I should continue to fund above average pensions for a public sector which serves us so poorly? Maybe I could have more services cut so you can live a bit more comfortably in your old age at my expense. Seriously, many me the people in the public sector don't even know you're born!

I'd call you someone that believes far too much what they read in the right wing press rumble.

I know exactly what it's like not to be able to afford things thanks, I manage to successfully not afford things every day and my bank keeps sending me love letter to remind me what I can't afford. I don't look at my wage before deductions, I look at what I actually get in my hand. The pension is just another deduction, I've never seen the money.

You say you don't have a pension. When you retire and claim the state pension who exactly do you expect to pay for that?

As it happens I don't read much of any press, but when I do it's one of 2 left leaning papers. For the record, I also voted for a nominally left of centre party in the last election. I'm basing my argument on what I know from personal experience, what I learned in my last job and what i've heard from those I know in the public sector.

You're really not getting it are you? You CHOOSE to make a contribution, so you can afford it. I can't afford to make that choice and i'm a reasonably well paid graduate in a sector that isn't that badly hit.

As for what i'll do when I retire - I don't know. At this point, frankly, i'm f*cked. I chose to buy a flat instead of start a pension. At the time I thought it was the right thing to do, in hindsight it wasn't. Now i'm in negative equity and can't move even though it's costing me a fortune every month. I'm unlucky that my generation is the first that on average is going to be poorer that its parents', but you know what? I can see that sometimes you get dealt a bad hand and you have to make the best me it like everybody else. That's why i'm not stamping my feet like a spoilt brat. With a million unemployed, most of whom would love any job let alone one with a pension, public sector workers need to grow up.

Cor, this has moved on while I've been away. Sorry about that, I had to go work a night shift and then go back to bed this morning.

I am getting it rumble. When I joined I was basically told I had to join the pension. I find out many years later that I didn't actually have to but by this point I was caught in the pension trap. I didn't have a lot of choice tbh and at the time they got us to sign up I was thinking more about the 14 week flogging I was about to get rather then my retirement. I can't afford to come out of it now but won't be able to afford to stay in if the changes come in. The changes annoy me so I'll do something about it when asked. Lot's of things seem to annoy you so what are you going to do about it?

To whoever said we didn't strike under Labour. Actually, we did. I'll never forgive New Labour for what they've done to the Fire Service. Looks ok to those on the outside but dig a little deeper and it's a real mess. The pension issue came up under their watch but never blew up like it has now. Must admit we wanted to kick off but had little support as the changes were negotiated and talked through. A message for the ConDems there?

As for those talking about Public Services wasting money. Yep, I agree it happens a lot. Just check out the Firecontrol project. The money wasted on that would have paid for the Fire Service for years. We told them it was a sh*t idea that would fail right from the start but they didn't listen. As with most wastes of money in the Public Service the decisions are made at the very top by people who think they're high flying corporate types. Most have come from the wonderful Private Sector these days. Why do those that oppose the strike use this to beat the vast majority of workers that have no say in money wasting decisions. In my job it's the Union reps that spend hours and hours looking through the managements latest daft idea and pointing out what a waste they usually are. Sorry, I forgot, all those pesky Union types do is look after themselves :roll:

Think it was Captain Cosmic that said he couldn't afford a pension while in the 50% tax bracket. I tell you what... Boost our pay to the 50% level and we'll gladly pull out of the pension and leave everyone alone.

To whoever was on about being self employed... Why is it ok for us to be told 'If you don't like it get another job' but not for the self employed? Come on, we can go and look together. Somewhere over the hills there must be a secret magical land where all these Private Sector jobs live.

 

[firedfromthecircus]

PFI or PPFPM (private profit from public money) as I prefer to call it is a disgrace. No matter who thought it up, or who implemented it, it disgusts me that every single one of us who pays tax has a chunk of it lining the pockets of the rich when it is supposed to be paying for our schools and hospitals. A purely private system would be better as you would at least have some choice in the matter. :evil:

Anyway, that is a digression from the main thread topic.

I have not read all the replies. I am surprised there are so many right wing, down with the worker, views on a cycling forum dedicated to older bikes! Genuinely surprised, and maybe a little bit saddened. :cry:

I just wanted to say that I work in the private sector. I have a pretty poor pension and terms and conditions that fall far below most of those that work in the public sector. I could be a little bitter about that as it seems a lot of responders to this thread are.
However, I fully support the action that is planned for Wednesday. I hope that your only available option of withholding your labour makes the government see sense. The deficit was not of your/our making, and your pensions, gold plated or not, should not be sacrificed to pay it off.

 

[marky2484]

"desk jockeys, cleaners and others going to strike"

Shouldn't be too much of a problem , then,should it??

Oh you meant teachers,doctors,nurses,border staff, health workers, rubbish collectors, did you. At least you can sneer at desk jockeys from your position as what, a deep sea diver? An explorer? Or perhaps as a desk jockey yourself.

Nothing as revealing as when you catch a glimpse of the real contempt some folk have for the public sector. Hope theres a nice private sector ambulance around if you ever need one.

Yep times are tough. And when they get better, and we're back into company parties, bonuses and nice cars for all, because this will happen, you'll want to share the cash around,yeah. Like feck. Times are tough= we're all in it together, times are good =I'm alright jack, and pull up the ladder.

 

[brocklanders023]

"desk jockeys, cleaners and others going to strike"

Shouldn't be too much of a problem , then,should it??

Oh you meant teachers,doctors,nurses,border staff, health workers, rubbish collectors, did you. At least you can sneer at desk jockeys from your position as what, a deep sea diver? An explorer? Or perhaps as a desk jockey yourself.

Nothing as revealing as when you catch a glimpse of the real contempt some folk have for the public sector. Hope theres a nice private sector ambulance around if you ever need one.

Yep times are tough. And when they get better, and we're back into company parties, bonuses and nice cars for all, because this will happen, you'll want to share the cash around,yeah. Like feck. Times are tough= we're all in it together, times are good =I'm alright jack, and pull up the ladder.

Bang on the button. I can't remember too many people saying the Public Services should get a slice of the pie in the boom years.

 

[maverick]

It's because the ConDems are trying to steal our pensions. Luckily for me my Union is still in talks so we won't be out on the 30th but I fully support every person that walks.

They picked the wrong fight here. :evil:

If you don't like it you could always get another job that will pay you the pension you deserve? Or if there isn't one out there perhaps your expectations are somewhat above your market value? The world has changed and the inefficient, bloated, corrupt (edinburgh city council and your billion pound part tram line, i'm looking at you) needs to change with it. Remember, you're only worth what someone will do your job for, and the vast majority of the public sector ain't exactly irreplaceable as individuals. *

In a previous role I had access to a range of public sector salaries and benefits information - 18% non-contributory pension anyone? Or how about the obscure government body consisting of 3 senior contrators, each taking home £800-1000 a day and who by their own admission don't know what their remit is or who they're accountable to? Not to mention the pervasive culture of spending to prove your own worth. Public sector pay and conditions? My heart bleeds!

*not a personal attack, I don't know what you do and i'm sure many in the public sector do a good job. I'd just rather be able to at least afford to pay into my own pension before my taxes stock everyone elses.

When I started my job I was told that if I paid 11% of my wage in to the pension I would receive X at the end of my service. They did not tell me that this might change if a bunch of very powerful spivs f**ked everything up whilst trying to stuff even more cash in to their already overflowing pockets. What I want is what I was promised. I am not a wealthy person and these changes if forced through will have a very serious impact on my standard of living in later life. Why are you suprised that I feel a little bitter about this and am prepared to lose money now to protect my future?

While we're at it, are you aware that the proposed 3.2% contribution increase between now and 2015 has nothing to do with our pension. The money stolen from us will be put straight in to the ConDems coffers and will in no way contribute to paying for our 'gold plated' pension. So basically I'm getting a 3.2% pay cut whilst we also have a pay freeze and the cost of living is going through the roof. Would you be happy to just bend over and take a pay cut?

By saying 'If you don't like it you could always get another job' you are suggesting that employers should have the right to treat employees exactly how they want? Do you really believe this?

Im with Brocklander. I signed on the line agreeing to pay 11% for a set period of years, and then get a lump sum with a final salary pension. My pay has now been frozen for 2 years (at least) they are wanting to up my contribitions by 3%, the cost of living is rising all the time, staff are being cut which means i have days off cancelled at a few days notice, i am not allowed to strike (by law) nor discuss working to rule or discuss what we should do to facilitate a change (by law), we are expected to just take it and suffer along with other public sector workers.

Do you we all really belive that employers may treat all employees with contempt and do what they like at anytime? I think not.

Whilst the strikes may not change the condems policy, it will certainly demonstrate the Public sectors unwillingness to just accept being done over.

Phew. Rant over.

 

[Neil]

Not disputing the fact PFI wasnt in place before 1997 however labour ripped the arse out of it might have been useful in certain programmes but not to the extent were it's being used to build schools Which local authorities should be doing instead of stashing money away in Icelandic banks then claiming they have no money to spare.

As for the torys using PFI had they stayed in power I don't know. Would we have announced to the world we were selling off the gold resverve then let the price fall on the back of it then flog it at a low price. A brilliant peice of of Fiscal management by the son of the manse!

You're still not making any sense. Clearly I was too subtle, so I'll be more blunt - it's retarded to try and make PFI a party political issue, as the conservatives created the initiative (they defined and named it) long before 1997, and neither you nor anybody else would have any credibility in attempting to suggest that the conservatives would have done any less with it.

By all means, drag party politics into this if you like - neither have any moral high-ground, here, so if you want to make any semblance of a lucid point, it does come with the responsibility of actually withstanding scrutiny, and not some artificial accusation that the other major political party wouldn't have done probably the same thing(s) in the same circumstances.

 

[Rumble]

The deficit was not of your/our making, and your pensions, gold plated or not, should not be sacrificed to pay it off.

How do we suppose the defict came about then. Having a bloated, wastful, inefficient and overpayed public sector that we can't afford wouldn't have played any part at all?

Say they all keep their pensions, where does the money come from to balance the country's books and keep paying public sector workers above the going rate? More tax for everyone? The pinko lefties on here seem to keep banging on about fairness like a little child - does it sound fair to you that everyone pays out more from their own salaries (many of which have been frozen, just like yours)?

In a perfect world the public sector should be model itself on the private sector - jobs need to have a clear justification for existance, demonstrate what they contribute and pay accordingly. High salaries and good packages in the private sector are based on skills shortages - CEOs get paid a lot because they're hard to get, same with certain types of software developer. Is it fair that a C++ Developer and a .NET Developer in the same company get paid different amounts becuase it there is a larger resource pool for one of them? No, not in an abstract, hypothetical world? But back in the real world that's not how it works.

What none of you are grasping is that things have changed and the old way (whatever the rights and wrongs of publuc sector salaries and pensions) isn't sustainable - there just isn't enough money in the bank. Sometimes shit happens and there isn't a happy ending. I can accept that and get on with it - why can't you?

 

[Neil]

The deficit was not of your/our making, and your pensions, gold plated or not, should not be sacrificed to pay it off.

How do we suppose the defict came about then. Having a bloated, wastful, inefficient and overpayed public sector that we can't afford wouldn't have played any part at all?

Say they all keep their pensions, where does the money come from to balance the country's books and keep paying public sector workers above the going rate? More tax for everyone? The pinko lefties on here seem to keep banging on about fairness like a little child - does it sound fair to you that everyone pays out more from their own salaries (many of which have been frozen, just like yours)?

In a perfect world the public sector should be model itself on the private sector - jobs need to have a clear justification for existance, demonstrate what they contribute and pay accordingly. High salaries and good packages in the private sector are based on skills shortages - CEOs get paid a lot because they're hard to get, same with certain types of software developer. Is it fair that a C++ Developer and a .NET Developer in the same company get paid different amounts becuase it there is a larger resource pool for one of them? No, not in an abstract, hypothetical world? But back in the real world that's not how it works.

What none of you are grasping is that things have changed and the old way (whatever the rights and wrongs of publuc sector salaries and pensions) isn't sustainable - there just isn't enough money in the bank. Sometimes shit happens and there isn't a happy ending. I can accept that and get on with it - why can't you?

Because quite simply you're wrong.

And rather ironically with the accusation about things being fair, the issues with public sector finances and pensions isn't truly about affordability (read Hutton), moreover it's about the claimed unfairness of them.