Please help identifying/dating Vintage Claud Butler Track fr

[Kronooke]

Please help identifying/dating Vintage Claud Butler Track frame

I'm hoping someone can help with an old frame that I would like to restore that has been repainted & decals changed. I believe it's a 1930's Butler track frame it has the super cutaway lugs which I believe dates it to the early 30's? But I can't find any info to confirm the date & model. The Bottom bracket has an array of stamped marking, I would be really grateful for any help before the restoration starts, so that it can be carried out correctly.

Many Thanks Wayne

 

[OldTel]

Re: Please help identifying/dating Vintage Claud Butler Trac

Hi, it does look like a prewar Claud Butler, the cutaway lugs were used throughout the thirties, but I afraid I can't use the word prewar, as the serial number points to November 1939 ( last digit in year-month-serial number ) if it was Jan, it would be a lower serial number. Nice frame, I hope you build it up to something special. Terry

 

[Kronooke]

Re: Please help identifying/dating Vintage Claud Butler Trac

Hi Terry,

Thanks for the input. I have had several interpretations on how to read the BB markings, but none making any sense, as it has been pointed out to me that the super cutaway lugs don't seem to be used on the tack frames after 1935! From this date on, they all had continental lugs! (can't find any other BB's with so many markings)
So it looks like the investigation will have to continue.
It will take some time to restore, but I will carry this out to the best of my ability when I'm sure the ground work is correct.

Pic of the last bike completed.

All the best Wayne

 

[OldTel]

Re: Please help identifying/dating Vintage Claud Butler Trac

Hi Wayne, that's some short wheel base, is there any clearance ? Very nice, but not the ride position for me. The serial number looks classic CB, the bottom bracket has the casting info 'British XXXXX', other stampings can be the framemaker info ( they were paid by the frame in the 30's, and returns would cost a framebuilder time and money ) and also external painters if used, could also add info. A lot of information is taken from the catalogues, but these were just guides, if you wanted a certain combination and had the cash, you got it. The catalogues are not rule books, in the 1939 catalogue the cutaway lugs are there, and also the track ends, they are just not shown as an off the peg combo, in this 39 catalogue it is just a snap shot of what they thought they would be selling. Don't forget the catalogue would take months to get ready and print, and then they were used in the trade shows in the previous November ( 1939 cat - ready for Nov 38 shows ), so they are a guess - a useful guide don't get me wrong, but a guide. I hope this helps. Terry

 

[OldTel]

Re: Please help identifying/dating Vintage Claud Butler Trac

Hi Wayne, having a revisit to the photos made me think, the angles are not mid thirties, late thirties, forties, yes. Also I have an CB 1936 frame with the cutaway lugs so I thought I would check the seat lug treatment, yours is not so crude, mine is done to the common practice in early/mid thirties, again pointing to it being later than 1936. I think the serial number is right. Terry

 

[Midlife]

Re: Please help identifying/dating Vintage Claud Butler Trac

Just as an observation and nothing more.........bikes transported and used in competitions usually had multiple stampings on the BB but note sure if this applies in this case.

Good luck

Shaun

 

[Kronooke]

Re: Please help identifying/dating Vintage Claud Butler Trac

Hi Terry,

There's not much clearance, I have to use 20mm tyres, giving 2mm on the seat tube! but my feet have plenty of room with no clipping of my toes on the front wheel, the top tube is a 55!
Sorry you lost me there a bit with the angles! Is your frame a 30's track frame? What markings does this have on it's BB?

Regards Wayne

 

[Kronooke]

Re: Please help identifying/dating Vintage Claud Butler Trac

Hi Shaun,

That is a very good point that has been made by two other people, I am trying to get C.B to confirm why this has so many marking? We can't find another C.B bottom bracket with anywhere close to the amount of markings stamped on this bottom bracket.

All the best Wayne

 

[keithglos]

Re: Please help identifying/dating Vintage Claud Butler Trac

You have cast lugs typical of 1930s, but the fork rake has to be 1938/9.
Have you measured the seat post diameter to identify the tubing guage?

 

[OldTel]

Re: Please help identifying/dating Vintage Claud Butler Trac

Hi Wayne, the angles of the 'lightweight' bikes became more and more upright as the 1930's decade went on, with some very modern angles for the top frames in 1938/39, hence the suggestions. It's discussed in this article http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/ex ... xtras.html and also checkout the various 1930 frames on the web, it should become apparent, your frame looks like a late thirties bike. As far as the serial number is concerned, my cb has its number in a similar position, and has a frame builders reference number, but it doesn't have the complication of a casting number and number, and the other stampings, I have seen similar examples. Terry