Pinarello Banesto Team Bikes by Pegoretti ?

[ciavete]

Re:

Understood. I will use the other helpful information you provided, thanks again Retro Guru. Be safe and well.

 

[jordic1968]

just searching a bit, I've seen there is another Banesto team bikeon ebay now, one from Indurain, maybe it helps you to compare ...

 

[ciavete]

Yes. I think there are a couple of Indurain bikes. Spectacular. Thank you Retro Guru.

 

[Cmisternick]

Re:

Great Bike - hang onto it.
A lot of water has passed under the bridge since my last post.
I visited Dario and interviewed him regarding the Banesto bikes
I am now the proud owner of the team bike ridden by Banesto rider JF Bernard in the 1994 TdF which Dario validated and signed. I was also very lucky to get a bike made by Dario just a month before he passed away.
His bikes are great to ride.

Hey there @dadoflam
Looks like I picked up the Gerard Rué bike from the ‘94 tour. Officially team members but #8 here

 

[dadoflam]

Brilliant - the 1994 season bikes were the only year with the chrome band where the FD clamps on to my knowledge so yes, definitely fits the bill. Well done.

 

[dadoflam]

I'd look for the initial of the rider, the fame number for that rider, and the number of frames made that season for example, but for sure anyone with more expertise can better say. Question is, did Pegoretti build Banesto bikes others than for the riders ?

Hi
Sorry for not responding sooner.

I've become a bit more focussed on researching Dario's work in recent times and, whilst nothing is definitive in Dario's World, my current thoughts are as follows:

Dario built the TIG welded Pinarello frames used by Banesto, Telekom and a couple of other teams from approximately 1993 (Indurain's) to 1997 when he has written in his catalogues that he stopped collaboration with Pinarello.

The TIG Banesto team bikes used in 1993/94 were in effect custom models that loosely aligned with Pinarello's Cromovan catalogue model, with some detail changes.

These frames were made from Excell Podium tubing, which was Dario's preferred tubeset, and not Oria tubing as the bike decals suggest. Dario confirmed this to me directly. It has been written that the Oria decals were a sponsorship item, and the decals were removed later in the 1994 season from the team bikes.

Not all riders in the 1993 team were given TIG frames, but in 1994 most were.

The 1995 Banesto team frames used by the lead riders were in effect custom Pinarello Dyna, again with some non-standard details including custom geometry, external cable runs, and clamp-on FDs (not braze on)

The Dyna model used the new Dedacciai Dyna Lite tubing which Dario had been involved in developing (along with the Radius tubeset) Dario's writing about his involvement with these tubesets in his first catalogue in 1999 was a bit ambiguous, leading to the assumption that he designed and built all the Pinarello Radius and Dyna model frames using these tubes. He clarified this in the following catalogue where he clearly stated he was involved in the design of the tubesets, not the bikes.

In reality he likely built a small portion of these models for Pinarello, which was also contracting others to build its TIG frames by that time. The Radius continued to be built by Pinarello after Dario finished working for them.

I am not 100% sure what Pinarello model Banesto was riding in 1996. Deutsche Telekom started using Pinarello that year and in the TdF were riding the rare Pinarello Keral Lite model. This was an unusual ceramic alloy tubing, TIG welded, but I am not sure Dario was involved.

In 1997 both Banesto and Telekom (and a couple of other teams) were riding custom Pinarello Paris model frames.

I have been fortunate enough to acquire a 1997 Telekom team bike.

1997 was the last season/year that Pegoretti was building frames for Pinarello.

In the 1990's Pinarello gradually changed its range from lugged frames to TIG welded frames. I believe Dario was the only frame maker employed by Pinarello in early 1990's for TIG frames, and that he was involved in designing some of the details, such as crown forks, seat clamps etc.

Early TIG frames in the Pinarello catalogue such as the Maxim, Vuelta TIG and Cromovan are likely to have been made by Dario IMO. They were only produced in small numbers.

By mid-1990's there were more contractors doing TIG and being used by Pinarello. In my view, it is would be rare that a Pinarello not built for a professional team would have been built by Dario. I personally believe that the chances of having a Radius frame built by him are slim. Although he was responsible for the unusual tube shape design which gives them their ride qualities.

He was heavily involved in making pro rider frames by this time - up to 90 or 100 frames per season per team. He famously built 25 frames for Pantani in one season (which I believe was 1995)

The pro team Pinarello frames (built by Dario) are characterised by unusual geometry, some details of cable runs etc, race number carriers, and also a second set of serial numbers on the frame. Telekom team frames were numbered with a K prefix number, in addition to the standard frame serial number. These are the so-called rider ID numbers. By memory the Banesto frame numbers have a H prefix.

Pinarello confirmed one Banesto bike I have against a register I assume they hold, but they have not responded to more recent queries.

To my knowledge Dario did not built any of the lugged Banesto replica frames released by Pinarello - he was employed for his TIG expertise.

At present, this is my theory based on the people I have spoken to, including Dario before his passing, and reading the material available.

 

[Cmisternick]

Brilliant - the 1994 season bikes were the only year with the chrome band where the FD clamps on to my knowledge so yes, definitely fits the bill. Well done.

Definitely a few details which set them apart and a turning point with tdf and steel frames (oh and Dr Ferrari). I’m intrigued that the Oria was just a sponsor gig as is heard that but never the actual tubing - but the paint fade must have been a feature of that set of frames. Yours is in almost identical state of fade. As I’m in Perth we could assemble almost 1/4 of the team bikes at TDU.

I have taken a photo of the serial number but not sent to Pinarello for verification -see attached to add to your data

Cheers

 

[dadoflam]

Hi there

Oria were supplying tubes to Pinarello for some of their range. Pinarello painted the frames welded by Dario, and applied the finishing decals - including the Oria tubing ones. Dario's preferred tubing was Excell which was lighter and stiffer.

I have wondered why the team bikes no longer have them.

In the sales write up for one of Indurain's bikes from 1994 the seller indicates that the decals were removed later in the season as Oria's sponsorship had expired. I haven't taken the time to look at late season pics to see if that is the case.

In answer to your question RE graphics fade - you are correct, all team bikes of that era generally have the faded going on. My memory the graphics are an unusual application - not decals.

Thanks for the BB number - out of interest, is there a prefix letter in front of the 12, under the cable?

Edit: Just found this extract from the recent Ebay sale page for one of Indurain's 1994 bikes:

"The Oria Cromovan frame stickers, presented during the Tour, were removed due to sponsorship cutoff.
The mark is still visible on the seat tube"

 

[Cmisternick]

Brilliant - the 1994 season bikes were the only year with the chrome band where the FD clamps on to my knowledge so yes, definitely fits the bill. Well

Hi there

Oria were supplying tubes to Pinarello for some of their range. Pinarello painted the frames welded by Dario, and applied the finishing decals - including the Oria tubing ones. Dario's preferred tubing was Excell which was lighter and stiffer.

I have wondered why the team bikes no longer have them.

In the sales write up for one of Indurain's bikes from 1994 the seller indicates that the decals were removed later in the season as Oria's sponsorship had expired. I haven't taken the time to look at late season pics to see if that is the case.

In answer to your question RE graphics fade - you are correct, all team bikes of that era generally have the faded going on. My memory the graphics are an unusual application - not decals.

Thanks for the BB number - out of interest, is there a prefix letter in front of the 12, under the cable?

Edit: Just found this extract from the recent Ebay sale page for one of Indurain's 1994 bikes:

"The Oria Cromovan frame stickers, presented during the Tour, were removed due to sponsorship cutoff.
The mark is still visible on the seat tube"

Just had a look again but no prefix in front of the 12. Would love to see the Telekom ‘97 tho

 

[dadoflam]

Here it is - very original apart from seatpost. I am presently in contact with a possible connection to the team at the time to see if we can determine which rider it belonged to. Based on geometry I am guessing Giovanni Lombardi who rode the TdF that year.

It is a Paris model, with distinctive shaped tubes, but pretty extreme geometry - very long and low. It has a rider number on BB in addition to frame serial no.