Oldest mountain bike in UK?

[kingoffootball]

I'll just leave this here...

Are you selling? What's the seat tube length C-T?

 

[Burnham Boy Lumley]

Re: Re:


Thanks, "rwm1962. That's what I love about RetroBike, Google didn't produce a picture of a Tony Oliver mountain-bike but Retrobike members can.

Making a mountain bike in the UK in 1981 would have been dificult as you would be retricted to using the available motorbike, touring bicycle and BMX components. Until the Japanese started making 26" mountain bike specific rims and tyres the Americans would have had similar problems. Though they had the advantage of having a readily available supply of fat 26" Uniroyal 'Knobby' tyres.

In the Uk in 1981 the easiest way to get hold or 26" rims and fat, though not very nobbly, tyres was to take them off the newly launched Raleigh Bomber. However these has chrome plated steel rims and those that have riden such rims will know that they are heavy and absolutely useless when wet.

Alternatively Tony Oliver could have used high quality French 650B alloy rims and 40mm wide randonneur tyres. However this would make the his 1981 'York' bike very simmilar to custom made roughstuff bikes who's British origins appear to date from the 1950s.

That's probably the rarest ATB to have ever been on here especially as it's 753. Very nice.

If you want to see the Tony Oliver in action
Here is Tony taking a photo of me taking a photo of my delectable ATB (Arctic Touring Bicycle) and Tony at the exact point where Norway and Sweden come together. He covered the trip in his book, I also did that in the FeedAread.com Publishing book "Burnham Boy" (it was twice 'Book of the Month' when published) As to 'old bikes' I am an 'oldie bikie' I guess who has been blessed with lovely bikes since I began writing about cycling in 1953.
Formed a cycling Club (it still is very active) was launch editor for two consumer Cycling monthlies, neither now published but I have acres of them. With Kathleen I helped produce the globally read b2b 'Bicycle Trade and Industry' trade paper. Editor, I was, writer I remain, BIKE LOVER for ever I guess. And why not!

 

[rwm1962]

Thanks @Burnham Boy Lumley for joining the forum & contributing to the thread. Along with Colin Fletcher, Derrick Booth, Mike Marriot & more latterly McNeish & Townsend you were a big influence as I learnt my craft. I will always say your magazine Footloose was the best outdoor mag to grace UK newsagents shelves. That's me as a backpacker. As a greenhorn bikepacker, back when we rode the Durham Moors I had no real idea of the history or significance of your 'Oliver ATB' steed. I was riding an own brand Edinburgh Cycles Cuillin Sport back then. As a 'Johnny come lately' to MTB due to my sons enduro/downhill racing that got me back on the bike in a big way, it's a buzz your old bike has a part in the early history of UK MTB. There's many a racer's name from the early years of mtb spoken of with reverence on this site but as someone who wasn't an mtb'er in those days but an outdoorsman & just a casual cyclist , your adventures & those of the Rough Stuff Fellowship & the likes of Dick Phillips resonate with me more & seemed the ideal use of such a bike.

 

[GrahamJohnWallace]

The tyres you mention: Nokia produced, looks like from the name. They did ice tyres, sorta studs inserted into the tread. The brand was from Finland, later called Nokian. They also did rubber footwear, using that stud system for shortie wellies.
Geoff, I recall, was freethinking and artistic, as anyone who saw his written signature would notice by the loopy flourishes as he penned it. Last time I met him was in The Borders, he kept his pet cat indoors for days as ground nesting birds had taken up residence at his cottage. True countryside style that....

Welcome to RetroBike.

You obviously have not only a wealth of experience but access to a first class archive of your own published materials. Though most people on this site are primarily interested in the MTB scene when things took off in the late 1980s, there is also a great deal of interest in what happened in the early days. Be that; mountain biking, roughstuff riding, Tracker bike riding or even military-bikes.

Geoff Apps is a friend of mine, as was the late David Wrath-Sharman and I have enjoyed many great rides with them since we first met in 1984.

Your brief description of Geoff sums him up very well. He says that his bikes were designed to carry him through the landscape and that includes the flora and fauna, of which his knowledge is great. I have known him to jump off his bike and kneel down muttering in Latin, as if in prayer. All because he has spotted a rare wildflower.

Geoff Apps is as you say both freethinking and artistic. He combines these traits with an enquiring technical mind and impressive, self-taught graphic design skills. Before he teamed up with frame-builder Jeremy Torr, he used to create immaculate engineering drawings of his designs and post them to far-flung frame-builders who made the frames and posted them back. He designed what he believed to be optimal with little regard to convention. As a result few frame-builders were prepared to, or even capable of making such unconventional designs.

Geoff still lives in Scotland, just north of the River Tweed.

 

[Burnham Boy Lumley]

Welcome to RetroBike.

You obviously have not only a wealth of experience but access to a first class archive of your own published materials. Though most people on this site are primarily interested in the MTB scene when things took off in the late 1980s, there is also a great deal of interest in what happened in the early days. Be that; mountain biking, roughstuff riding, Tracker bike riding or even military-bikes.

Geoff Apps is a friend of mine, as was the late David Wrath-Sharman and I have enjoyed many great rides with them since we first met in 1984.

Your brief description of Geoff sums him up very well. He says that his bikes were designed to carry him through the landscape and that includes the flora and fauna, of which his knowledge is great. I have known him to jump off his bike and kneel down muttering in Latin, as if in prayer. All because he has spotted a rare wildflower.

Geoff Apps is as you say both freethinking and artistic. He combines these traits with an enquiring technical mind and impressive, self-taught graphic design skills. Before he teamed up with frame-builder Jeremy Torr, he used to create immaculate engineering drawings of his designs and post them to far-flung frame-builders who made the frames and posted them back. He designed what he believed to be optimal with little regard to convention. As a result few frame-builders were prepared to, or even capable of making such unconventional designs.

Geoff still lives in Scotland, just north of the River Tweed.

.... I had to think about north or south (for Geoff) of that Great Divide he lived, yet remember the Whitebeams close to his cottage were green leafed, there on the north bank of the salmons' highway we all love.
You bicycle tourists ought try this ..from St Mary's Loch Potter along to the first bridge over the Tweed, cross and ride the south tarmac, a while on cross back ... continue that most pleasant of way and be not disappointed that although head seawards and to Berwick upon Tweed not every stretch of your bicycle tour will be down the elevation. Yet it is so nice, the ride.
You can go with the flow, though, as do all those little ganged up raindrops that much time before had wetted the uplands above St Mary's. They all gathered through the peat and now beat a path to the sea, but yourself tarry and look towards the west, especially towards dusk time. The light coming to you from Tweed water is as no other you find on any wheeling way.
OK, there's nothing very mechanical nor of a rusting, needs greasing, nature you see, but that time you spend standing with your friendly bicycle companion: The Good Life.
Ride what you will, how you will and where you will; the beingThere with bicycle. PRICELESS, and Geoff will say the same. Been blessed, both!
ha e gathere



and now earth. together

 

[GrahamJohnWallace]

.... I had to think about north or south (for Geoff) of that Great Divide he lived, yet remember the Whitebeams close to his cottage were green leafed, there on the north bank of the salmons' highway we all love.
You bicycle tourists ought try this ..from St Mary's Loch Potter along to the first bridge over the Tweed, cross and ride the south tarmac, a while on cross back ... continue that most pleasant of way and be not disappointed that although head seawards and to Berwick upon Tweed not every stretch of your bicycle tour will be down the elevation. Yet it is so nice, the ride.
You can go with the flow, though, as do all those little ganged up raindrops that much time before had wetted the uplands above St Mary's. They all gathered through the peat and now beat a path to the sea, but yourself tarry and look towards the west, especially towards dusk time. The light coming to you from Tweed water is as no other you find on any wheeling way.
OK, there's nothing very mechanical nor of a rusting, needs greasing, nature you see, but that time you spend standing with your friendly bicycle companion: The Good Life.
Ride what you will, how you will and where you will; the beingThere with bicycle. PRICELESS, and Geoff will say the same. Been blessed, both!
ha e gathere



and now earth. together

There are some on this site who believe that the most important thing is speed. Though you, I, Geoff, and many others, know otherwise.

Geoff's cottage close to the Tweed was a wonderful location. Apart from the short time he lived near the south coast in Sussex, Geoff's life has gravitated slowly northwards from London, via the Vale of Aylesbury (where he developed his early bikes), to Coldstream to work on New Cyclist magazine. He now resides near to Duns in the Scottish Borders.

In the meantime I crossed the Great Divide, moving south from Liverpool to a village in Geoff's old Chiltern Hills stomping ground. The humble bicycle is indeed a wonderful way to access the great outdoors. It's not about the getting there, but the journey.

 

[justbackdated]

...a question.

Ok, so cyclocross has a long and establshed traditonal in the uk, with origins back in the 1920s. We know about Geoff Apps’ Cleland cycles work on the back of cyclocross in the late 60’s and the later supply by Highpath Eng. And the Roughstuff Fellowship and The Untold British Story....

But I think that the broad consensus is that mountain biking - not least the name - had its origins in Marin county with the Repack Pack. Not the modifies clunkers, but the first Breezers and Fishers.

So what was the first cluster of US-inspired mountain bikes in the uk? My first true off road foray on something other than a ‘cross bike was on a borrowed Raleigh Mustang on the South Downs. The owner did not use it for anything off road, and the high crossbar, bmx chainset and useless tyres rendered the two muddy days a hilarious affair of pushing uphill and sliding down. A friend had bought a 21 inch Dawes Ranger (531) and I used my knowledge of road sizing to buy a secondhand one a couple of days after him....I am 5 7 and could barely stand over the top tube. It had a range of motorcycle bits and very weird bmx stem, stupid-long gears and everything flexed like mad. 1988 if I recall correctly.

We did a lot of miles. A lot. No kids, great summer on the Downs. Began to know intimately the huge network of bridelways. For us, mountain biking then was miles, not single track. And boy did we put the miles in. Jumping? You must be bonkers.

Downhills were frankly terrifying, the diacompe brakes were shit. The tyres were useless, both in compound and tread pattern.

In 1989 something happened. Bill Rayment in Brighton imported the first Stumpjumper into the UK - anyone know any other imports? Action Bikes opened in the YHA shop and sold Cannondale and Cinelli. I sold the Ranger to someone it fitted - they were 6 foot 2 - and I bought a Cannondale. I think that was the first thoughtfully designed mountain bike I had, with a genuine chance of not killing me. When that was nicked from the back of my car, it was clear that the 1989 Marins (team titanium....palisades) had stretched, low geometry which meant we were really mountain biking....full chat downhill, like whippets with four wheel drive up hill. And decent kit dedicated to off road, from shimano, suntour and the embryonic after-market suppliers like onZa.

For me, the first mountain bike proper in the uk was 1989.

Any other take?......

Hello folks…been a while!!
This is my Pro Lite which I bought off a bloke who had brought it into Britain to tart round the bike shops to persuade them that this is the ‘new big thing’. Of course this being just after the seemingly overnight ‘death’ of BMX he was unsuccessful and put the bike up for sale a while later in the Stratford Herald small ads from which I bought it for the princely sum of £80.

Obviously a copy of the early Ritchey etc. it has served me well. I added the Tri Cross and Stumpjumper tyres back in the day as it came with naff centre ridge jobs. The bike got its first real ‘mashing’ on the inaugural Easter Mountainbike Festival at Llanwrtwd Wells, now was that ‘82 or ‘83? Time to dig out those Bicycle Action magazines!!

Cheers everyone!

 

[justbackdated]

Aah, first Easter MTB Fest appears to have been April ‘85! So the Pro-Lite had already been to the first Wendover Bash and Hay on Wye Fat Tyre Five rides.

 

[GrahamJohnWallace]

Aah, first Easter MTB Fest appears to have been April ‘85! So the Pro-Lite had already been to the first Wendover Bash and Hay on Wye Fat Tyre Five rides.

Yep! The first copy of Bicycle Action is dated June 1984, though I recall that the issue was in the shops before June. It was BA who promoted the 1984'Fat Tyre Five' series of of competition events and rides. The first UK MTB XC race was held at the Eastway London, on Sunday 27th of May 84 with more than 70 rider's taking part. However, you would be wrong to deduct that there were 70+MTBs at this event. Many riders did not have their own bikes and so borrowed bikes from Muddy Fox, Saracen, and Gecko.


For historical accuracy; there where far earlier and much larger racing events held for 'Tracker' bike riders well before the arrival of US style MTBs.
I do not know the earliest dates in Post-War Britain these 'Tracker', grass-track events began but their history is intertwined with cycle-speedway (short oval flat-track) racing.

The first UK MTB specific rides were ran by Geoff Apps from from Late 1982 from Wendover Bucks. There were much earlier Roughstuff Fellowship rides using standard road bikes. Though the RSF did not shy away from covering challenging terrain, it was the expectation to push or carry bikes over the tricky sections. In contrast, the Wendover riding ethos was to seek out and ride as much difficult terrain as possible. So road-bike riders who came along on the Wendover rides would have to walk a lot.

 

[justbackdated]

Yep! The first copy of Bicycle Action is dated June 1984, though I recall that the issue was in the shops before June. It was BA who promoted the 1984'Fat Tyre Five' series of of competition events and rides. The first UK MTB XC race was held at the Eastway London, on Sunday 27th of May 84 with more than 70 rider's taking part. However, you would be wrong to deduct that there were 70+MTBs at this event. Many riders did not have their own bikes and so borrowed bikes from Muddy Fox, Saracen, and Gecko.

View attachment 704837
For historical accuracy; there where far earlier and much larger racing events held for 'Tracker' bike riders well before the arrival of US style MTBs.
I do not know the earliest dates in Post-War Britain these 'Tracker', grass-track events began but their history is intertwined with cycle-speedway (short oval flat-track) racing.

The first UK MTB specific rides were ran by Geoff Apps from from Late 1982 from Wendover Bucks. There were much earlier Roughstuff Fellowship rides using standard road bikes. Though the RSF did not shy away from covering challenging terrain, it was the expectation to push or carry bikes over the tricky sections. In contrast, the Wendover riding ethos was to seek out and ride as much difficult terrain as possible. So road-bike riders who came along on the Wendover rides would have to walk a lot.

Aye, we were at the first Wendover FTF bash, didn’t do the London Eastway; too far for my ‘64 Mini!! Also did Hay and Quantocks.
I don’t remember any ‘Tracker’ events back in the day. I built my Rory O’Brien tracker in the mid 1970s I guess, don’t think I have any pics unfortunately. I think they may have featured on Blue Peter or something??
There was a Boxing Day cyclocross event in Kenilworth woods that we spectated at, and a cycle speedway oval on Warwick common/racecourse where my step-Dad used to race. Apparently it was common to nip to the A&N stores to buy surplus BSA ‘Parabikes’; race ‘em and wreck ‘em and then go back for another!
Had a look through my Bicycle Action mags, unfortunately the event reports were not fantastically in depth. I chose to keep BA and got rid of my Bicycle and Bicycle Times (except the one with Carlton on his pink thing) mags. Guess I should have kept them all.
Do you remember the first Bicycle mag ‘Hard Ride’ mud fest!!?