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Oldest mountain bike in UK?
- Thread starter 2manyoranges
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In the UK 'things' had moved on very quickly with a bit of odd experimentation
This thing climbs like a mountain goat!
Rumoured to have been built for the 1986 bike show
In the UK 'things' had moved on very quickly with a bit of odd experimentation
This thing climbs like a mountain goat!
Rumoured to have been built for the 1986 bike show
jazzibizznizz
Retro Guru
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Who was the builder of that frame?
I had a Dawes Cougar which I bought in around 86/7 and was so proud of at the time. But it's lugged frame, box crown forks and high-flange hubs were already outdated when compared to not just US builders, but even UK builders like Overburys and Bromwich. And the handling was terrible. I sold it to my CDT teacher at school, who just wanted a comfortable bike to cruise along easy bridleways, and it was perfect for that.
Who was the builder of that frame?
I had a Dawes Cougar which I bought in around 86/7 and was so proud of at the time. But it's lugged frame, box crown forks and high-flange hubs were already outdated when compared to not just US builders, but even UK builders like Overburys and Bromwich. And the handling was terrible. I sold it to my CDT teacher at school, who just wanted a comfortable bike to cruise along easy bridleways, and it was perfect for that.
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I think your timing is slightly off - 1989 is too late. When I bought my first mountain bike in 1987 I could afford a 531 Raleigh, a Muddy Fox Courier or a Rockhopper (just). Stumpjumpers were in the shops, but out of my price range. I think the YHA shop was 1988 - I remember looking at a Fisher Competition in there that was still 18 speed with a U-brake which means 88 or earlier.
I think your timing is slightly off - 1989 is too late. When I bought my first mountain bike in 1987 I could afford a 531 Raleigh, a Muddy Fox Courier or a Rockhopper (just). Stumpjumpers were in the shops, but out of my price range. I think the YHA shop was 1988 - I remember looking at a Fisher Competition in there that was still 18 speed with a U-brake which means 88 or earlier.
Some good and noteworthy info from LGF (credit where it’s due) but I firmly disagree that anything the eccentric Geoff Apps worked on was anything related to mountain bikes as we now know them or the industry that formed directly from the NorCal klunkers, Joe Breeze, Tom Ritchey, Charlie Kelly, Gary Fisher and Mike Sinyard.
Inarguably the first British production mountain bikes were the Evans/Saracen bikes.
Inarguably the first British production mountain bikes were the Evans/Saracen bikes.
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Geoff Apps bikes were for traversing the muddy, lumpy UK terrain, mud being the main factor in its long design.
Materials available at the time really hampered its design leaving early ones quite fragile.
As Grahame says - treat them as a separate timeline in off road cycling. But dont discount the home grown.
A lot of US bikes are just terrible in a claggy UK winter (this ride ripped off the mech hanger!)
Where Geoff's bikes could go, a contemporary Tom Ritchey would fail pretty quickly whereas an Apps bike in Marin county would be a bit slow.
And dont forget Geoff was supplying Tom with tyres at the time! All well documented deep in the vaults of RetroBike.
And all were just men in sheds.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=382308
Materials available at the time really hampered its design leaving early ones quite fragile.
As Grahame says - treat them as a separate timeline in off road cycling. But dont discount the home grown.
A lot of US bikes are just terrible in a claggy UK winter (this ride ripped off the mech hanger!)
Where Geoff's bikes could go, a contemporary Tom Ritchey would fail pretty quickly whereas an Apps bike in Marin county would be a bit slow.
And dont forget Geoff was supplying Tom with tyres at the time! All well documented deep in the vaults of RetroBike.
And all were just men in sheds.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=382308
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Re: Re:
It was built by 'English Cycles' Jeremy Torr
Full write up here
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=122960&hilit=green+mystery
A great picture demonstrating the sheer size of a Cleland/ Highpath!
And any modern MTB of any kind will get thoroughly bollocked in this:
jazzibizznizz":17plvu40 said:
It was built by 'English Cycles' Jeremy Torr
Full write up here
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=122960&hilit=green+mystery
A great picture demonstrating the sheer size of a Cleland/ Highpath!
And any modern MTB of any kind will get thoroughly bollocked in this:
Sure, Apps was on a different page entirely. But he wasn’t exactly setting the world alight with his designs. Maybe he did a bit for the tweed industry in Cumbria or wherever but I cannot see anything he did for mountain biking as it became today. I don’t think that Mr Shimano ever visited Geoff’s shed to talk about developing a whole new group set for the Pathfinder. Totally different beasts, but when talking about mountain bikes, we are specifically looking back to and then on a timeline from the Repack gang. There’s simply nothing that connects Apps to the world we now live in. Sure, maybe he hit upon the 650B/700C knobbliest before the Yanks would have, but at the rate they were developing stuff, I believe it would’ve made no difference whatsoever had Geoff Apps never existed. And then, perhaps THE most important link from Ritchey/Kelly/Fisher/Specialized to the explosion of companies that grew up in the states (the east coast was also rapidly growing from the early 80s as well as the main hub of the west coast manufacturers) is the WTB gang and specifically Charlie Cunningham with his inventions and developments, then Steve Potts and Mark Slate ramping it all up and the synergies between them, what Specialized was doing in the Far East, and Suntour’s and Shimano’s involvement in the whole lot. Certainly no Apps involvement or dare I say even influence there.
Apps has his place in bicycling history, I don’t dispute or deny him that, but it should not be confused with what mountain biking was then or is today. Then take it back to the whole purpose of this thread, and tell me whether the core f British mountain bike builders that had super success - Muddy Fox, Saracen, Orange, Pace (I’d even omit Raleigh from the list because that was a behemoth of a bicycle company just capitalising on the whole explosion of interest in it but aside from the race team and DynaTech/RSP they didn’t really push anything along in the development of the mountain bike industry, they just added to the numbers and from their half-arsed approach and subsequent failings simply helped the likes of Hope, Pace, X-Lite, Mr Crud and some others really explode within the burgeoning British ‘mountain bike’ scene by the sheer numbers of low end bikes sold that for kids - like me - on one in the early days but then quickly onto better stuff. The Brits pretty much jumped on the American-and-Japanese bandwagon and made a huge success off the back of their inventions and the industrial and mass manufacturing expertise.
Apps has his place in bicycling history, I don’t dispute or deny him that, but it should not be confused with what mountain biking was then or is today. Then take it back to the whole purpose of this thread, and tell me whether the core f British mountain bike builders that had super success - Muddy Fox, Saracen, Orange, Pace (I’d even omit Raleigh from the list because that was a behemoth of a bicycle company just capitalising on the whole explosion of interest in it but aside from the race team and DynaTech/RSP they didn’t really push anything along in the development of the mountain bike industry, they just added to the numbers and from their half-arsed approach and subsequent failings simply helped the likes of Hope, Pace, X-Lite, Mr Crud and some others really explode within the burgeoning British ‘mountain bike’ scene by the sheer numbers of low end bikes sold that for kids - like me - on one in the early days but then quickly onto better stuff. The Brits pretty much jumped on the American-and-Japanese bandwagon and made a huge success off the back of their inventions and the industrial and mass manufacturing expertise.
You cannot know that for sure. But I reckon plenty of contemporary bike designs would easily nogiated that, and get back down again quickly and with control. A 29er+ hardtail could eat that up.legrandefromage":13v76gim said:
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You are being very derogatory and dismissive of a whole chapter of the UK off road scene.
There was no internet to speak of and other companies bikes were only seen in the press so it is just by pure chance that the US version of an all-terrain-bike took off - it was easy to copy too, only tandem and moped parts being available either side of the pond. You had to make things from scratch. As before you should really look a litter wider now and again. You cant just ignore it because you dont like it. It happened, Apps happened, fortune just happened to favour somebody else.
As for that gloopy muddy track in Wendover Woods, what do you think was being ridden down there? Only the Apps' bikes in their various forms actually worked as bicycle - they were born there, the more modern stuff just didnt have the clearance or traction on the day.
Just looked at the cover for the International Cycling Guide for 1982 - just a couple of mentions of the mountain bike with a very off road looking Range Rider on the front with a big write up - although there is a Dawes elite doing its off-road touring thing. This is from a book available in the US and UK.
That brings all round in a big circle to 'gravel grinders'!
Have some vintage French off-road and touring to show what was going on across the channel.
There was no internet to speak of and other companies bikes were only seen in the press so it is just by pure chance that the US version of an all-terrain-bike took off - it was easy to copy too, only tandem and moped parts being available either side of the pond. You had to make things from scratch. As before you should really look a litter wider now and again. You cant just ignore it because you dont like it. It happened, Apps happened, fortune just happened to favour somebody else.
As for that gloopy muddy track in Wendover Woods, what do you think was being ridden down there? Only the Apps' bikes in their various forms actually worked as bicycle - they were born there, the more modern stuff just didnt have the clearance or traction on the day.
Just looked at the cover for the International Cycling Guide for 1982 - just a couple of mentions of the mountain bike with a very off road looking Range Rider on the front with a big write up - although there is a Dawes elite doing its off-road touring thing. This is from a book available in the US and UK.
That brings all round in a big circle to 'gravel grinders'!
Have some vintage French off-road and touring to show what was going on across the channel.
You’re right, I don’t like the Apps bike. It’s way too cramped and tall to be ridden at speed, downhill.
There wasn’t any luck in what happened in the US. Pure grit, determination, foresight and business nous that made it all take off. Perhaps you ought to do a bit of research yourself.
The Apps bike is a monstrosity. That’s why hardly anyone bought them.
As for “only Apps’s bike could ride that section” I gave you an alternative. I think you’re confusing the terms modern and contemporary.
Apps failed. His bikes were ugly. Yet they performed a function and a purpose. But whatever those were, they were NOT akin to or related to THE MOUNTAIN BIKE INDUSTRY OF TODAY.
Can’t you get your thick head around that?
There wasn’t any luck in what happened in the US. Pure grit, determination, foresight and business nous that made it all take off. Perhaps you ought to do a bit of research yourself.
The Apps bike is a monstrosity. That’s why hardly anyone bought them.
As for “only Apps’s bike could ride that section” I gave you an alternative. I think you’re confusing the terms modern and contemporary.
Apps failed. His bikes were ugly. Yet they performed a function and a purpose. But whatever those were, they were NOT akin to or related to THE MOUNTAIN BIKE INDUSTRY OF TODAY.
Can’t you get your thick head around that?
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