My new Highpath cleland build
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As you have found, one advantage of the reduced weight on the front wheel is that in slippery conditions the tyre is less likely to slip sideways. And even when it does slide sideways the effect on balance of the bike is greatly reduced compared to a similar front-wheel skid on a regular mountain bike. Also, because there is less weight on the front wheel that it can easily be picked up and repositioned laterally in order to restore balance and control. Meanwhile the additional weight on the rear wheel improves traction.
There is hovever a downside in that on a long steep climb you have to lean forwards to stop the front wheel from lifting which can be tiring for the back muscles. I used to have a mountain bike fitted with drop handlebars and riding on the drops was more comfortble on longer climbs. David Wrath-Sharman experimented with adjustable handlebars but adjusting the handlebars whilst riding wasn't easy and most riders found it easier to lean forwards instead. Later on DW-S made a full-suspension bicycle that had long forward extensions on the handlebars, though I have not ridden that bike and so don't know how well the arrangement worked.
http://www.toptrail.co.uk/gallery.htm
Hi Justonemorebike, It was good to meet you on December's Wendover ride and brilliant to see the great job you have made of recreating David Wrath-Sharman's 'Big Blue' frame design. I especially like that you have kept the purity of the design by fitting high zero-offset handlebars which together with the short frame move most of the rider's weight backwards over the rear wheel.Justonemorebike":1ren3w11 said:
As you have found, one advantage of the reduced weight on the front wheel is that in slippery conditions the tyre is less likely to slip sideways. And even when it does slide sideways the effect on balance of the bike is greatly reduced compared to a similar front-wheel skid on a regular mountain bike. Also, because there is less weight on the front wheel that it can easily be picked up and repositioned laterally in order to restore balance and control. Meanwhile the additional weight on the rear wheel improves traction.
There is hovever a downside in that on a long steep climb you have to lean forwards to stop the front wheel from lifting which can be tiring for the back muscles. I used to have a mountain bike fitted with drop handlebars and riding on the drops was more comfortble on longer climbs. David Wrath-Sharman experimented with adjustable handlebars but adjusting the handlebars whilst riding wasn't easy and most riders found it easier to lean forwards instead. Later on DW-S made a full-suspension bicycle that had long forward extensions on the handlebars, though I have not ridden that bike and so don't know how well the arrangement worked.
http://www.toptrail.co.uk/gallery.htm
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Nuts!
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legrandefromage":20mxpc9d said:Nuts!
Nutz maybe - but off the scale cool
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David Wrath-Sharman didn't do 'Nuts', only Allen key bolts.legrandefromage":1hiwutyi said:Nuts!
I have never ridden this bike however from talking to DWS and others who have, I think this bike, designed in collaboration with a automotive suspension engineer, qualifies more as ground-breaking genius than 'Nuts'.
Albeit complex genius.
In theory the interconnected suspension system off a 1955 Citroen DS or 2CV should not work on a bicycle.
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This is all kinds of cool, great thread
Strangely enough I was taking to a mate this week about the virtues of these, after he has been moaning about mud clogging his frame recently...
The whole idea of just getting out there on a prototype bike and engineering a way around problems literally found on the road/trail is indeed fascinating. On a slightly different note I have been lucky enough to spend time with Mike Burrows over in his workshop who is of a similar ilk. These guys need to be cherished!
Out of interest is Geoff Apps still on here?
This is all kinds of cool, great thread
Strangely enough I was taking to a mate this week about the virtues of these, after he has been moaning about mud clogging his frame recently...
The whole idea of just getting out there on a prototype bike and engineering a way around problems literally found on the road/trail is indeed fascinating. On a slightly different note I have been lucky enough to spend time with Mike Burrows over in his workshop who is of a similar ilk. These guys need to be cherished!
Out of interest is Geoff Apps still on here?
Justonemorebike
Dirt Disciple
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An attempt to make a small frame modernish bike ride like an Apps style bike. The picture shows how high the BB really is on Apps bikes the specialized has a reasonable BB height especially with the 29er forks. Seat needs to go forward more to compensate for the wrong seat tube angle. Gear ratios start at 17 inches! As Graham mentions handle bar placement and height is critical in making the bike ride as intended.
An attempt to make a small frame modernish bike ride like an Apps style bike. The picture shows how high the BB really is on Apps bikes the specialized has a reasonable BB height especially with the 29er forks. Seat needs to go forward more to compensate for the wrong seat tube angle. Gear ratios start at 17 inches! As Graham mentions handle bar placement and height is critical in making the bike ride as intended.
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It seems odd, according to the race listings, that the designer of the classic mountain bike doesn't appear to have taken part in the 'Repack' races.
A very different process than that of Tom Ritchey who was shown Breezer Number1 in 1979 and went away and made similar bikes of his own design. A design that subsequently became the architype for mountain bikes around the world. Although Ritchey had plenty of experience of roughstuff riding on road-bikes I don't think that at that time he had experience of riding fat tyre 'Klunkers'.mynchiboy":36zzekwu said:This is all kinds of cool, great thread
Strangely enough I was taking to a mate this week about the virtues of these, after he has been moaning about mud clogging his frame recently...
The whole idea of just getting out there on a prototype bike and engineering a way around problems literally found on the road/trail is indeed fascinating.
It seems odd, according to the race listings, that the designer of the classic mountain bike doesn't appear to have taken part in the 'Repack' races.
I expect that he visits here from time to time but hasn't posted anything since August last year.mynchiboy":36zzekwu said:
M-Power
Old School Grand Master
Re: Re:
Well said. These bikes are so specifically engineered for our typically claggy rutted trails. Mike Burrows came into the store a few times in the very early 90s when he had his arm in a pinned plaster cast. His injuries looked horrific Such a pleasure to chat with him a few times.
I read on a US forum that ~ 22yr old Ritchey was chosen to ramp up the number of eary mountainbike builds because he was ‘apparently’ a much faster frame builder than Joe Breeze. Id still rather have any Series I-III breezer though
mynchiboy":q9xvoufr said:This is all kinds of cool, great thread
Strangely enough I was taking to a mate this week about the virtues of these, after he has been moaning about mud clogging his frame recently...
The whole idea of just getting out there on a prototype bike and engineering a way around problems literally found on the road/trail is indeed fascinating. On a slightly different note I have been lucky enough to spend time with Mike Burrows over in his workshop who is of a similar ilk. These guys need to be cherished!
Well said. These bikes are so specifically engineered for our typically claggy rutted trails. Mike Burrows came into the store a few times in the very early 90s when he had his arm in a pinned plaster cast. His injuries looked horrific
Such a pleasure to chat with him a few times.I read on a US forum that ~ 22yr old Ritchey was chosen to ramp up the number of eary mountainbike builds because he was ‘apparently’ a much faster frame builder than Joe Breeze. Id still rather have any Series I-III breezer though
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Here we have an early copy of Ritchey mountain-bike alongside a 1983 Cleland Aventura. The picture dates to 1985.
You can clearly see the Cleland's design differences including the larger diameter 650b tyres, high bottom bracket and centre of gravity and narrow high handlebars suited to forest riding and keeping above the summer thorns and nettles. The more upright riding position puts about 80% of the weight over the back wheel and makes the very front light and easy to lift off the ground by either pulling on the bars or accelerating hard.
It is interesting that this Danish winter bike has a similar weight over the rear wheel riding position.
A position that gives very good rear wheel grip and makes the front wheel less likely to dig into soft ground. If the front wheel slips sideways it upsets the bike less and if your quick enough you can lift it off the ground and pull it back onto the correct line. A tyre won't continue to slide sideways if it isn't touching the ground.
Here we have an early copy of Ritchey mountain-bike alongside a 1983 Cleland Aventura. The picture dates to 1985.
You can clearly see the Cleland's design differences including the larger diameter 650b tyres, high bottom bracket and centre of gravity and narrow high handlebars suited to forest riding and keeping above the summer thorns and nettles. The more upright riding position puts about 80% of the weight over the back wheel and makes the very front light and easy to lift off the ground by either pulling on the bars or accelerating hard.
It is interesting that this Danish winter bike has a similar weight over the rear wheel riding position.
A position that gives very good rear wheel grip and makes the front wheel less likely to dig into soft ground. If the front wheel slips sideways it upsets the bike less and if your quick enough you can lift it off the ground and pull it back onto the correct line. A tyre won't continue to slide sideways if it isn't touching the ground.
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