Is this Columbus Max?

[danson67]

Re:

The Battaglin is true full MAX throughout. If you look at the seat stays, they are proper MAX ones, flat oval in section 18 x 12 mm for most of their length.

The Merckx has had MAX top tube and seat stays substituted for something else.
Top tube is 28.6mm round (could be anything) into a standard top head lug and seat cluster. The seat stays are double tapered (Nemo/Zona?) with Merckx engraved top eyes.

Which is better? Personally I prefer the classy look of the Merckx, even though the Battaglin has some extra kudos for being full MAX. In theory the Merckx will be a tiny bit lighter and less stiff, but that's no bad thing on a smallish frame. Probably comes down to which paint job or brand you prefer.

All the best,

 

[wassertreter]

Re:

Cheers danson.
In all likelihood I'll not be getting either, Merckx doesn't really tickle my fancy and the Battaglin is slightly too big. Also I already have a lugged Genius frame in my collection, so I'll probably be holding out for a welded MAX or similar.

The (non retro, ok) Hampsten MAX also has the flatter part of the TT in the front.
http://www.hampsten.com/portfolio/MAX/

The Mazza Team 94 mentioned above has has the flat part in the rear.
http://columbusmaxbikes.blogspot.co.at/ ... mazza.html

So maybe simply both ways are possible?

 

[oonaff]

Re:

yes i have noticed also[ref thread going on this web site caloi mxl] using col'El top tube. with oval
t tube flatter at the front. thus more compliance there more hand comfort .rather than the opposite of a more rigid top tube/ head to favour a stronger steering set up.like on most moderns

 

[danson67]

Re:

OK...They're not the same lugs, but I've found that Long Shen (who make everything lug-wise) made an oval lugset with the long axis horizontal at the front, vertical at the rear.


They probably made something similar for Merckx as a special.
No doubt supposed to make it more 'vertically compliant' or something.

All the best,

 

[oonaff]

i would like to know how the tubes are formed.i can imagine oval to round or oval to larger oval being done on a mandrel then perhaps bilamination at ends . but cant see how they can make oval steel change direction .ah yes may be they use opposing mandrels ?no if the tubing is tapered it doesnt matter i think its a one end jobby.?
i was in argos cycles once talking about lugs for a fork crown and i frowned when a jap lug catalogue came out
but was swiftly educated that they are good lugs

 

[PANZR]

The Merckx is MXL which was a modified MAX tubeset (hence the name MX Leader)
I believe one of the differences was that the TT was of a smaller diameter than normal MAX

I have a Columbus MINIMAX frame which was similar to MXL. It's tubing is shaped like MAX but, is of smaller diameter so the elliptical ends aren't as obvious as normal MAX

 

[danson67]

Re:

Here's the MAX spec:

And MINIMAX:

The smaller long axis on the Minimax oval also made joining at the seat tube easier and neater, as the 31.6 hoizontal axis is close to the 28.6 seat tube diameter, specially if an external reinforcing sleeve (30 -32mm diameter ish). Max is 37.3, so there's a huge overlap which needs to be dealt with unless you're building with the Columbus Max lugs.

On the oval forming, the tubing is formed round and double butted using mandrels as usual. 28.6 for Minimax, 31.8 for Max. Then each end is separately pressed into a female former to give the oval form and the ragged end trimmed back to the fi al tube length. It could be simply squashed in a press, but this over stresses the peaks of the long axis of the oval, risking cracking.

All the best.

 

[bikenrrd]

I have a modern Bob Jackson (Olympus Road), which seems to be built in the spirit of the MX-Leader frames. 28.6mm top tube and 35mm down tube, 28.6mm seat tube (takes a 27.2mm post). Built from oversize Reynolds 853, rather than Columbus. The frame is lugged and doesn't have any shaped tubes that I can discern. The seat stays are tapered in the middle and the chain stays are pretty beefy too.

It's quite a heavy frame (2.1kg in a 54cm) but does ride really nicely. Stiff around the bottom bracket but I don't feel beaten up after a 100 mile ride.

 

[oonaff]

Re:

thankyou for that diagram,cold pressed it is then.and certainly some machinery they must have there,
thats probably why my modern ally feels so harsh compared to the triple butted ally coppi i had ounce . they have used the same principals of mxl with a stiff material to begin with and even with a curved seat stay, there is virtually no compliance what so ever :|
bikenrd'......smart ones !

 

[bikenrrd]

Re:

An interesting blog here: http://columbusmaxbikes.blogspot.co.uk
Lots of pictures of Columbus Max framed bikes.