Information wanted about Beryl Burton & the frames she used

[roadking]

Ok I'm now 100% convinced that this IS NOT the Genuine article that it was orignally made out to be? NOW THER"S A SURPRISE !!

I have now removed the forks to check the number & low & behold it has the number 6298 stamped on to them.
Where as the frame has SB 6303 stamped on to the Bottom bracket shell.
So somewhere down the line the forks have been replaced!!

I was very suspicious before as all the Raleigh Panasonic team coloured bikes I've seen in photos have Blue forks where as this one has White forks & to my eye the White on the forks is different to the White on the frame.

The only saving grace from this little saga is
1, that it isn't life or Death and
2, at £324 for a SBDU F&F including a Super Record Headset its OK, being as I didn't have a 24" wheeled Low pro in the collection.

NB This should teach as all a very valuable lesson "Don't Believe anything anyone tells you unless they can back it up with documentary evidence" NO Matter who they are.

I am genuinely saddened by this tale, and it's good that you are stoical about it. I had my doubts as you know, although not mentioned the fork crown and colour were issues for me, and I also had issues with the bottom bracket cable guide: and with the claimed provenance.

I've banged on many times on this forum about provenance - people always think they l know better and many get duped as a result.

Either way you have your lo-pro, so go ahead with the build and I look forward to seeing it when complete.

Jon.

 

[FINNEY1973]

I think this an example of how the internet can let you down somewhat. "If" there had been one piece of confirmed evidence that linked BB to a lo-pro of the ilk we have here, then that becomes the bone, it's easy to pick it up & run with it and see if you can get more history / story / truth, whatever. If however it seems that the chase will be fruitless then perhaps the drive isn't quite there to delve deeper as, has been commented on the thread, doubts exist as to the link between BB and bike. It's always going to be difficult to prove any provenance unless of course you have the good fortune to access the written or photographic evidence that confirms some history. Those opportunities don't seem to happen very often I would suggest.

 

[roadking]

Re:

I do have images from when it was originally sold.

Jon.

 

[stringfellow1946]

Re: Re:

Certainly a valuable lesson for any buyer blinded by the kudos of a famous owner, or not as the case may be. Little bit naughty that the numbers don't match - that certainly wasn't advertised by a certain 'retail' seller.

Buyer beware for sure - no proof, no association, I've no problem with that. I'm just not sure that I'm understanding this thread - in fact I don't know how to take it at all. Let me explain:

The OP bought the frameset, fully suspecting that it wasn't what it was said to be. In his own words:

"I’ve just got hold of a frame that was supposedly built for the great lady by Raleigh SBDU. (yea & the worlds Flat)."

In fact he tells us this even before he says that he has the item in his possession - so he was under no illusions.

He goes on to say that he knows little about English frames and he asks for information about BB and the bikes that she rode. When offered snippetts of advice i.e. that BB did ride SBDU bikes, he says he knows it all already. He then leaves the matter barely 48 hours and draws a line under the thread.

BB became famous in the sixties and, as many here will know better than I, continued to ride competitvely well into the eighties, in short she was/is a legend. However, she's been dead now for nearly 20 years, her family, friends and club mates have grown older and yet they're expected to be avid followers of Retrobike and to produce answers on demand. We've even found a helpful statement on the authoratative timetrialling forum dating from 2007, well before this frame was offered for sale and from a former club mate, that says clearly that she tried lo-pro bikes at the time. I'd have thought that this might have piqued some interest, since it appears to be all that there is out there on the internet.

"I have now removed the forks to check the number & low & behold it has the number 6298 stamped on to them. Where as the frame has SB 6303 stamped on to the Bottom bracket shell."

These forks would probably have been made on the same day, never mind in the same week. What prospect of finding them on ebay as a replacement? The answers to these questions need more time and consideration. What is the overall geometry of the frame, was it built for a short fork? The OP might find his suspicions are correct but he went into the transaction with his eyes open, for the rest of us let's now see how this all plays out...

My goodness how you have managed to twist this around I have no Idea?
may I polietly suggest that you read the thread correctly!!
The OP (as you put it) bought the frame after being told it WAS ONE OF BERYL BURTONS by the original seller. (see the original ad by the original seller, which I will now post again for your benefit)
SBDU frames have matching frame & fork numbers.
Who said anything about the forks being bought on e-bay???

This is the ORIGINAL AD by the ORIGNAL SELLER " AND Its still there on his web site"

RALEIGH ILKESTON LO-PRO Reynolds 753 built for Beryl Burton
Seat Tube (ctt): 20in (51cm) 
Top Tube (ctc): 21.55in (54cm) horizontal, 22in (56cm) along tube
Frame tubing: Reynolds 753
Frame number: SB6303
This Raleigh lo-pro frame was made at the Raleigh Ilkeston plant run by Gerald O’Donovan for Beryl Burton, the top British women’s rider of the 1960s–80s. 
In autumn 1974 Raleigh established a specialist workshop (SBDU) capable of frame building to the very highest standards at Ilkeston in Derbyshire. Frames were built for the Ti-Raleigh continental pro team from the very beginning. The unit worked with Reynolds in developing Reynolds 753 and the first frames were tested by the Ti-Raleigh team in 1974. For a company as large as Raleigh, the SBDU was quite an unusual operation. Its production capacity was modest – at a maximum only about 1000 frames or so a year from about four framebuilders.
This frame dates from late 1983 and features unusually an oversize (1 1/8in) top tube. Some of the original equipment has been replaced – the brakes, bars, BB, seatpost and chainrings are all replacements – Beryl Burton was known for using a large single chainring for time-trialling so it would probably have originally been fitted with a 56T chainring. The front wheel is obviously original – it has a Raleigh Ilkeston decal, the rear gear is Zeus which were imported by Ron Kitching who was a long time sponsor of Beryl Burton. This is really a very special lo-pro built by one of the best high end builders in the world in the late70s/80s... SOLD.

 

[Ellis briggs]

Re:

This particular thread sparked my interest.

I can shed a little bit of light on what frames BB rode. A lot of them were not the frame that the transfers would suggest. We built plenty of frames for her and enamelled them for Ron Kitching.

Nim Carline also rode our frames, although he bought all his and they had our transfers on them. I guess he had some influence on her. I know she liked to have pencil stays too.

In the later years we also built some for her with no transfers on.

I spoke to her husband last year and he remembers picking frames up from us. I think Pennine and Woodrup may have also done something similar.

Regards
Paul

 

[stringfellow1946]

Mike Mullett has just put the folioing post up on the raleigh forum about this.
"The last known conventional frames built for BB were built in1982 at Ilkeston. I would forward you the dimensions if I wasn't languishing in hospital bed. The racing bike was 753 finished in TI Raleigh team colours and features on the cover of the BB Story book. The training bike was built with mudguard clearances and finished in a gold colour. As for frame numbers - frames for named riders carried the following code, initials . frame sequence . year. Hence BB.1.82 and BB.2.82.
From the guy that built them -
Mike Mullett
GOD's workshop manager"

So as I originally suspected this is NOT one of BB frames as the bottom bracket only has SB6303 50 on it.

 

[stringfellow1946]

UPDATE from Hillary Stone, posted in reply to Mile Mullets post about this frame on the Raleigh Forum

Quote
"Very sorry to hear you're not so well, Mike.

Getting back to ex BB lo-pro. After Mike left the SBDU in 1982 there were lots of changes – frames for amateur riders were no longer given their initials and date – I had two frames built for Sally Hodge the first Womens World Champion in the 1988 Track Points race. SB8766 a low-pro pursuit frame and SB8655 a road frame, neither carried her initials or a date. They were bought by me from her father so had near perfect provenance. There is a clear distinction between amateur riders and pro riders in my opinion. But where it is blurry seems to be with sposored amateur riders. However I think BB was only sponsored by Raleigh for one year and I would think this frame post dates her Raleigh sponsorship – this is easily researched but i don't have the BB biography to hand.
I have had several frames from Raleigh pro and sponsored amateur riders in the 1990s – some have had the initials stamped on the frame as well as an SBDU number – more one of these frames was built from 853 so that dates the continued use of SB numbers until after1995! Some have the rider's name and some not.

Hilary Stone, Cwm, Ebbw Vale, British Isles"
end Quote

So the MYSTERY continues! it seems??

 

[roadking]

UPDATE from Hillary Stone, posted in reply to Mile Mullets post about this frame on the Raleigh Forum

Quote
"Very sorry to hear you're not so well, Mike.

Getting back to ex BB lo-pro. After Mike left the SBDU in 1982 there were lots of changes – frames for amateur riders were no longer given their initials and date – I had two frames built for Sally Hodge the first Womens World Champion in the 1988 Track Points race. SB8766 a low-pro pursuit frame and SB8655 a road frame, neither carried her initials or a date. They were bought by me from her father so had near perfect provenance. There is a clear distinction between amateur riders and pro riders in my opinion. But where it is blurry seems to be with sposored amateur riders. However I think BB was only sponsored by Raleigh for one year and I would think this frame post dates her Raleigh sponsorship – this is easily researched but i don't have the BB biography to hand.
I have had several frames from Raleigh pro and sponsored amateur riders in the 1990s – some have had the initials stamped on the frame as well as an SBDU number – more one of these frames was built from 853 so that dates the continued use of SB numbers until after1995! Some have the rider's name and some not. Hilary Stone, Cwm, Ebbw Vale, British Isles" end Quote
So the MYSTERY continues! it seems??

I agree, the mystery does continue.

Mike Mullett left the SBDU in, I was sure 1981, but appears 1982: that minor detail aside, the SBDU in it's original form (i.e at Ilkeston) closed in 1986 IIRC, and the SBDU was integrated - effectively disappearing - into the Nottingham operation.

There is an ongoing concern - for me anyway.

Rk.

 

[stringfellow1946]

I agree, the mystery does continue.

Mike Mullett left the SBDU in, I was sure 1981, but appears 1982: that minor detail aside, the SBDU in it's original form (i.e at Ilkeston) closed in 1986 IIRC, and the SBDU was integrated - effectively disappearing - into the Nottingham operation.

There is an ongoing concern - for me anyway.

Rk.

So who built & where were they built, "the Raleigh Castorama Frames" that Fingnon used in 1990 & 1991?? as I believe they were still stamped SB on the bottom bracket?

 

[FINNEY1973]

I agree, the mystery does continue.

Mike Mullett left the SBDU in, I was sure 1981, but appears 1982: that minor detail aside, the SBDU in it's original form (i.e at Ilkeston) closed in 1986 IIRC, and the SBDU was integrated - effectively disappearing - into the Nottingham operation.

There is an ongoing concern - for me anyway.

Rk.

So who built & where were they built, "the Raleigh Castorama Frames" that Fingnon used in 1990 & 1991?? as I believe they were still stamped SB on the bottom bracket?

Some information here: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=263673