Hope-Less

jimo746

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Went out to the shed today to retrieve some wheels to sell, only to find two spokes had parted company with the rear Hope Ti-Glide hub 🙄.
It's been a couple of months since I last used the wheels, but I swear they were fine at the end of the ride, I'm sure I'd have noticed 2 spokes rattling around on the rear wheel!

I can only assume the hub has spontaneously deconstructed itself whilst sat in the shed, old hub, cold weather....?? 🤷🏼‍♂️

I think this is me done with the old Hope hubs, I previously had a front hub crack on me too, lovely looking things, but time it seems hasn't been kind to them.
I'll just stick with the XT M737 hubs that are still going strong after nearly 30 years!

IMG_20220109_155434.jpg
 
I'm of the opinion Jim that its probably down to constant tightening from truing. Sure it sorts out a wobble, but i feel it puts an unnatural strain on parts of the hub.
Shared I think by the wheelbuilder i use, who had me dismantle a ti glide(my red ones, so pretty new as it goes) to replace two spokes from some chain damage. He said it was easier and better for the wheel to dismantle,ie loosen every spoke right off,1/4 turn at a time and rebuild rather than take out the two and true it up from there.
It wasnt a case of being charged more for the extra work as i was the one asked to dismantle it and tbh i dont think he charged me any more than a fiver.

I can understand from that how the tension would affect the forces placed on the flange in one point, and subsequent truings must make the wheel out of uniform tension.
Most as you know early hopes, as this was a burgeoning sport then, would have been trued many times and you'll probably find thats got more to do with it than anything.
Sounds a logical approach to me.

Axle/ti freehub, end spacers, plus the rim of course you could get more back that a standard rear wheel costs. Just a shame as the ano looks quite bright and unfaded.
 
Being on the drive side they are under great tension than the nds.

And being winter the cold made the alu brittle and hey presto the flange failed. Not unknown.

Remember the liberty ships from ww2. Same thing...

Cheers James
 
So i'm absolutely convinced the cold weather wrecks these hubs... i've had quite a few of them, some disintegrated, some absolutely mint & still going strong. The mint ones have all come from homes with integral garages that are clearly a lot warmer then the british garden shed, the dead ones from the latter. Not certain on why they go where yours did but the ones where the flanges crack I think is because the Alloy contracts more/faster than the Ti centres - thus putting greater strain on the friction fit on the flanges.

I keep my minty v.early purple TiGlide wheels in the loft, wrapped in cut off bits of lagging, after every winter I breath a sigh of relief they have survived lol!
 
If they’re hung from the wall or ceiling sometimes the weight can affect older hubs, had a couple of hopes do this over the years.also radial spokes pattern send more vibrations through the hub causing cracks.....in my experience anyways.
 
Mass produced hubs (such as Shimano) tend to be made using a forging process, whereas Hope and other boutique hubs are usually made by machining a solid piece of aluminium billet. This is an important difference. The forging process tends to produce stronger hub flanges because it causes the material's microstructure to flow into the shape of the hub and its flanges, and the deformation during the forging process can increase strength. Furthermore, forging causes compressive stresses in the surface layers of the hub flanges, which helps to resist fatigue crack initiation and growth.

For the same reasons, rolled threads tend to be stronger than cut threads (machined threads). Rolling threads is essentially a forging process that strengthens the material by causing the microstructure to flow into the shape of the threads. The deformation strengthens the material, and the compressive stresses created in the surface layers help to resist fatigue crack initiation and growth. The increase in strength and compressive stress is particularly important at the root (trough of the thread), which is where cracks are most likely to be initiated.

Left Image - Rolled Thread

Right Image - Cut Thread

threads.jpg


cut-thread-vs-rolled-thread.gif
 
I think this is me done with the old Hope hubs, I previously had a front hub crack on me too, lovely looking things, but time it seems hasn't been kind to them.
I had the same happen with a front Hope Hub, that looks like the same pedigree as your Rear Ti-Glide. I was on my bike at the time doing a fairy swift decent on a Farmer's Twin Track, so lots of room to manoeuvre the bike to a stop :eek: - still a bit scary though.

I think that I was in some way responsible as I had used DT Swiss Competition 2/1.8/2mm butted spokes, and these were very tightly tensioned. So I don't think I had anything to complain about using a 20 something year old Hub, which over the next few years did receive some design development, with beefing up the Flanges. I don't work for Hope by the way!

Hope Ti Glide F_2.JPG


Pip
 
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I have a small display of cracked/broken Hope hubs, and a further couple of cracked hubs now being used as light pulls in the house.
I've only got one built set - which I'm now tempted to bring into the house for fear of them exploding in my freezing workshop! :eek:
 
Well, I made this photo a few years back:





The Ringle hubs are well known to fail while sitting in the warm basement. Something about the early Aluminium cnc parts.

I had a broken Hope front hub, that I made a replacement flange for, too:



And I also took the mechanics from that broken Hope rear hub to make my own version.



So there is still hope for some of those cracked hubs...

Recycling ftw! :D
 
So i'm absolutely convinced the cold weather wrecks these hubs... i've had quite a few of them, some disintegrated, some absolutely mint & still going strong. The mint ones have all come from homes with integral garages that are clearly a lot warmer then the british garden shed, the dead ones from the latter. Not certain on why they go where yours did but the ones where the flanges crack I think is because the Alloy contracts more/faster than the Ti centres - thus putting greater strain on the friction fit on the flanges.

I keep my minty v.early purple TiGlide wheels in the loft, wrapped in cut off bits of lagging, after every winter I breath a sigh of relief they have survived lol!
It could be a humidity and dampness problem, as well as a temperature problem.

Some aluminium grades are known to be susceptible to stress corrosion cracking. That means crack growth could be dramatically accelerated in the presence of all three of these factors:
1. Stress
2. Humidity
3. A suitable electrolyte

With respect to each of these factors:
1. The stress is always there (unless the spokes are slackened)
2. The average British shed probably has a fairly high humidity for several months every year. I have always had my weather station wireless sensor in my shed. And the measurements always suggest that for a large part of the year, humidity is far higher in my shed than it is indoors at the base station.
3. If the bike is ridden on salty/gritted roads, then that provides the electrolyte. And as salt is hygroscopic, it also ensures that any crack that is present will remain permanently wet due to the damp shed environment.

I'm not sure what those early Hope hubs were made of, but I note that 7075 grade was a very popular choice for 1990s boutique bike parts, and that there are articles online suggesting that 7075 is susceptible to stress corrosion cracking in the presence of NaCl (also known as table salt and grit salt. Also, some people may have cleaned their bikes using detergents that contain salt.

With respect to temperature, the ductile to brittle temperature transition could be a factor. And that is when things start getting complicated and somewhat academic, because you need to delve into fracture mechanics. and look into data for fracture toughness. If I recall correctly, cracks can be initiated and grow by a variety of mechanisms. For example:
1. Fatigue (repeated load-unload cycles, which is exactly what happens to the spokes and hub flanges with each wheel revolution)
2. Creep (only really applies at high temperatures, such as turbine blades, or with very low meting point alloys)
3. Stress corrosion cracking (stress in the presence of moisture and an electrolyte)
4. A combination of 1, 2 and 3.

Once a crack has propagated sufficiently far through the material, then the material can fail in a brittle manner, as the crack propagates in a rapid uncontrollable manner. This final stage, involving sudden and catastrophic failure, is governed by the fracture toughness of the material. Unfortunately, history is littered with engineering examples of crack initiation (or production methods that led to cracks in the finished article), followed by a period of crack growth, and ending with sudden and catastrophic failure. And sometimes it was poor design that led to high concentrations of stress in small areas of material.

Perhaps the best known example of this is found in the Liberty Ships of WW2. The traditional method of riveted construction was replaced with welded construction so as to speed up production of ships during wartime. Unfortunately what no one realised at the time was that the welds had a rather low fracture toughness at the low temperatures the ships were exposed to in the North Atlantic. This caused the sudden and catatrophic failure of many Liberty Ships. The resulting investigation into these failures is often credited with advancing interest and academic study in the area of fracture mechanics.

Typically, fracture mechanics is of importance in industries where sudden and catastrophic failure is an unacceptable outcome. That is primarily defence, aerospace, power generation, and nuclear, although some other areas are also important, such as petro-chemical (refineries, pipelines etc). What this means in practice is that after production, parts must be inspected for the presence of cracks, using methods such as dye penetrant, ultrasonic and x-ray. And once in service, regular inspections must take place to detect and monitor crack initiation and growth.

For what it's worth, my Hope hubs have always been kept indoors in a warm dry environment, and so far they have not cracked.
 
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