Holdsworth Professional Track Frame?

[CBguy]

Well, I think we may have gotten into a bit of a "wild goose chase" re Collard and Quick's stamps being the same! I had read somewhere that the vertically stacked numbers were 1/4".

I just placed examples of BB's on same page, adjusted BB lengths to 68 mm and digits appear different heights (although there likely is some camera angle error):

69197 Pro #'s vertically stacked across BB (Collard 69 style) are ~ 1/4"
69573 Ultralite #'s on edge of BB (Group 2 and likely Quick) are ~ 3/16"

Anyway doesn't change likely conclusion of vertically stacked 69's being Collard's and the 69's on edge as in Dave's Group 2 as likely TJ Quick's. If my extrapolated measurements are correct they just didn't use same stamps.

If Shaun's Cronometer TT and Dave's track Pro numbers measure a height more like 3/16" that is even more info .

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Well had a go measuring the stamping on the Monsoon and Track frame, the special is too obscured by paint. The stamping is much deeper on the track frame. Monsoon looks clearly like 3/16", the track frame appears bigger, but I have to say I can't make this up to 1/4". I think it is due to the position of the tape measure, Monsoon is center to center and the track is overall/outside height.

Pictures attached, see what you think.

 

[torqueless]

Re:

I wonder if Reg Collard stacked his steerer numbers too? It'd make sense. Using even 3/16th stamps on the steerer in the usual orientation makes for borderline illegible numbers with no tops or bottoms.
My '81 Special is 3/16th in both locations. (yes they are borderline illegible, and hence borderline unmeasureable, on the steerer.)

I reckon my '75 mystery is/was 1/8th.

This is getting a bit forensic! Next we will be asking if number-stamp sets come in 1/32nd increments..? :?

Oh.. and you might want to have a look at this recently bumped thread:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=332402

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Re: Re:

I wonder if Reg Collard stacked his steerer numbers too? It'd make sense. Using even 3/16th stamps on the steerer in the usual orientation makes for borderline illegible numbers with no tops or bottoms.
My '81 Special is 3/16th in both locations. (yes they are borderline illegible, and hence borderline unmeasureable, on the steerer.)

I reckon my '75 mystery is/was 1/8th.

This is getting a bit forensic! Next we will be asking if number-stamp sets come in 1/32nd increments..? :?

Oh.. and you might want to have a look at this recently bumped thread:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=332402

I'll go with your comments at the time, logged as 6D Holdsworth number.

 

[Wileyone]

More "brainstorming":

Torqueless,

I read that sced's bike "69559" was a Xmas gift WHEN he was 16. Quote again; "I have a 1973 Super Mistral #69559 that was custom made for me as a Christmas gift from my parents when I was 16." Hopefully sced will be able to clarify my question re actually received at Xmas '73 or ordered at Xmas and perhaps not received until earlyish '74. And I agree with error by one owner or other on #69559 as two frames with same number - another point to clarify. This frame despite questions, remains the ONLY "69" frame number that also has any kind of date attached to it supporting the theory that "69 Shop series" stretched from '69 to '74 +/-'75.

The K or stock series of font as described by Dave in 1st group are (as you mention) described by Kilgariff as being built for stock and by builders outside of Putney shop other than Collard. Question is was the builder Quick (during Collard years) or another builder as Alec Bird or Charles Roberts Sr.? Interesting that number 75128 Dave includes in this 1st group is a Roy Thame and so points toward (can't be definite) being built by Quick with explanation for font that built in Quick's own workshop with his own stamps. Also I have seen another Roy Thame (221186) owned by Non-fixie and discussed in Bike forums that is similarly stamped as this 1st group. It is a number beyond the Thame "75" series and looks like an early 80's frame with photo of BB below: http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vinta ... re-10.html


Dave,

I agree with Torqueless and have been thinking similarly that Collard's vertically stacked numbers across BB and later numbers along BB after Quick took over (as in your 2nd group) are a similarly looking font which would suggest these stamps belonged to the Putney shop and were used by both Collard and Quick while each were main builders in the shop.

Perhaps there should be another 3rd group of stamps including 7229 and 7314 which are both on a different position of BB and I think both different fonts to suggest were outside unaccounted builders during Quick era.


Wileyone,

Re

:
"My Tommy Quick Road Bike from 1985 is stamped in a similar manner. (i.e. edge of BB) Does anyone know when Tommy started at Holdsworth? I know he took over from Reg C in 1970 but when did he start there? "

Perhaps if you have a picture of your 1985 TJ Quick serial number, so as to compare as to which type of font it resembles, it might help clarify further? An '85 Quick would most certainly have been made in his own workshop.


Non-fixie's Roy Thame BB:[/quote]

Here is a pic of the T.J. Quick BB. The Bike is oddly Fillet Brazed SLX and at 19.3 Lbs. It's a Rocket. It has been Powder coated so the #'s are hard to see. But the positioning is similar to my Holdsworth.

[url=https://postimg.org/image/tmqlltltx/][img]https://s2.postimg.org/gvcffbc21/IMG_3967_2.jpg[/img]image sharing[/url]

[url=https://postimg.org/image/ood3....postimg.org/g63nfbunx/IMG_4028.CR2.jpg[/img]image url[/url]

 

[CBguy]

Hi Wileyone,
I have a few boring questions re details of numbers. Perhaps i'll send a message privately and then get back to group with thoughts if any. As torqueless says this is getting a bit forensic!
Doug

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Another update of the Excel file and back to 120/yr for the shop 69 number usage. I missed Shaun's number out and that drives us to 715+ max number for 1969. I guess this is as good as it gets for guessing what happened for now. We have a reasonable 120/yr production rate, 69559 in the right year and cover the highest number found in 1974. that said not sure I am totally happy with 69559 in the middle of 1973, hopefully more info will confirm.

 

[torqueless]

Re:

picture posting test.. fail

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Another update of the Excel file and back to 120/yr for the shop 69 number usage. I missed Shaun's number out and that drives us to 715+ max number for 1969. I guess this is as good as it gets for guessing what happened for now. We have a reasonable 120/yr production rate, 69559 in the right year and cover the highest number found in 1974. that said not sure I am totally happy with 69559 in the middle of 1973, hopefully more info will confirm.

As you were, Looks like I already had Shaun's frame down. Adding in the wrong number really threw the results as you might expect. So we are back to 115/yr and 69559 end of Oct/Beginning of Nov. Which I have say sounds better. At the end of the day this is only a guess on limited info. I have also updated 66140K as it turns out to be 65140K

More U turns that Teresa May!!

 

[Midlife]

My stamped letters and numbers are 5.59 mm high on my 69517 frame. Had a look and under the shaky paint job it is white....not a trace of orange.

Shaun