Holdsworth Frame Numbers

[guybagnall]

Hi - I should have proper pics tomorrow as mentioned. I only have this very odd mess which at least shows the nipple on the front and more of the lugs, and is in a strange sepia tone, but that doesn't obscure the main features. My feeling is it might be 1951 but the other photos tomorrow should add a lot more.

 

[guybagnall]

Meanwhile - Claud Butler had six-digit frame numbers in the 30s, but this 1949 one that I came across shows the numbers are a bigger scale and at 90 degrees to the mystery example - I wondered whether that small scale number was somehow a later addition - all the frame numbers stamped into the tube are bigger digits and across the tube - could the smaller one be stamped just into the lug? The CB also seems to have a small number '8' next to the '4' and at 90 degrees - has anyone seen anything similar?

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Yes, that's a typical Pre-Holdsworth, CB number. Could be 30's or 40's as the first digit is the year and the second the month. You would have to look at the rest of the frame to ID it. As it happens I have that one logged in the database and it is July 1949, Seq. #2465. When the month gets into double digits the number goes to 7 digits.

I have to say the previous number you have shown does not seem to fit CB numbers and the crescents on the head lugs are quite distinctive. Not sure I have seen them on CB or Holdsworth frames. The number location/orientations is not in the usual place and would only fit Jan 1935 or 1945. I only have one other number for those years and the sequential part is much higher than the one I have.

 

[OldTel]

Re:

Hi, I think the discussion should move to the Claud Butler Identification thread, CB were making loads of frames in this period, they probably had a number of different sets of stamps, and different people doing it, that is why other clues are required, numbers are just numbers. Any way this is the Holdsworth thread, so this discussion could get lost, it needs to move. Thanks Terry

 

[Peachy!]

Re: Re:

Hi, I think the discussion should move to the Claud Butler Identification thread, CB were making loads of frames in this period, they probably had a number of different sets of stamps, and different people doing it, that is why other clues are required, numbers are just numbers. Any way this is the Holdsworth thread, so this discussion could get lost, it needs to move. Thanks Terry

Ermmm, no thank you, it's extraordinarily unlikely to be a Claud…

And anyway, it would most likely get a better response if it was posted on its own in the ‘Reader’s Road Bikes’ section under a “Please help identify this mystery frame” at least that way, fans of other manufacturers would be more likely to take a look…

 

[guybagnall]

Thank you Peachy - there is a Holdsworth connection that I hope I will in a position to explain later today, but your idea may be the best one anyway. Regards

 

[guybagnall]

Hi - I’m afraid I didn’t more pics, so I will abandon this quest. Regards to all.

 

[guybagnall]

Re:

I was pointed to pics after all - attached.
The interesting points are:
1. The brake bridge is curved with diamond reinforcements, and I only found Ephgrave (from 1949/50) or Flying Scot (from 1954) frames with that feature.
2. The lugs are among the most complex I have seen - and the best designed in that other complex ones are very whirly naff, which I personally don't like. Whoever did these gave them a lot of thought and added to eg the standard Nervex (which are around the bottom bracket, which dates the frame from 1950).
3. Even the handlebar stem has elaborate lugs and is of design that went out by the 70s (with the nut).
4. The Roy Thame decals - the Holdsworth connection - presumably not put on before 1976. The frame might have been in the shop stored away from the time it was made.
5. The frame number - which may be a red-herring as every other frame has digits both bigger and in a different format.

These were all on an ebay listing - it went for £385 so one or two people must have known more about it!
Anyone know who made it? It looks like a one-off labour of love...

 

[dwscrimshaw]

6 Digit numbers seem common on RT frames so if these lugs look the same as yours you could have a lead here. If you google or ebay RT frames you can see the style of numbering used. (RT did use Holdsworth shop numbering system for a while, these were 5 Digit staring with 2 digit year)

 

[OldTel]

Re:

Hi, if you had started these queries in an open manner we could of got to answer quicker, it is a Stuart Purves, very rare and built by Les Ephgrave, early fifties as suspected, it has been rebadged by Roy Thame, a common practice when repainting and recycling bikes through a cycle shop. I hope this helps, Terry