Holdsworth Frame Numbers

[dwscrimshaw]

There is a ref here to a Cycle Cross frame, pos a Competizion.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=362572&p=2776344#p2776344
This one has a shop style frame number where as the 70's 4 Digit numbers were factory frames, but we do have one odd one reported as a Competizion too. Is it possible that there is a 5th digit at the beginning of the number under the paint? dose the number on the forks match?

If your keeping it then build it up to suit your needs/preferences. None of mine are totally original as I tend to fit better breaks for club rides with more modern bikes. My Monsoon is a real mix of old and new, tyres particularly make a real difference.

 

[Kman]

Re:

Cheers for that it does make some sense. The frame number is 4 digit, as the fork matches it. I've attached the photo of the bottom bracket, not completely clear, but the 4 digits are evenly spaced and central on the shell itself.

Also, I read somewhere that competizione would only be plain gauge tubing. This is light, as light as a Roberts road frame from a similar time that I have, which is 531 DB.

Would that not also point to it being a custom frame?

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Yes, I think that makes it clear, factory 1970's 4 Digit number system, custom frame. Similar to Competizion, but different origin.

 

[Kman]

Re:

Thanks Dave.

I've 'just' got to decide what direction to go with!

I've got another cross frame that i'm trying to determine the origins of. Again, it was my fathers and I also raced it as a junior, but I've never know what it is. I've attached some photo's but the basic details are;

Frame number 8331. Matching Bottom bracket and fork.
Nervex lugs
Campag drop outs
Mafac cantilever bosses

It is older that the other cross frame and is probably not 531 as it is heavier.

It does have some fluted top eyes, that might help, but I can't fathom what its origin is.

 

[dwscrimshaw]

That Fluted stay and the fork crown look very 60's. There were 4 Digit number in the early 60's, but I have not seen one as high as this. If 70's 4 Digit it would be newer than your other frame. We do have a group of others, that we can't place, a number of these have Nervex Pro lugs and curved rear brake stays. The number would fit with these, but the dates are all over the place, hence the others pile. I guess the lugs for the Mafar Cantilevers were added latter or could have been a converted frame.

 

[CBguy]

Nervex Pro lugs with fluted semi wrapover seat stays were seen on Cyclone in 57 and 58 but number doesn’t fit.
Also seen in Claud Cordon Bleu 60/61. But brake and TT braze ons in neither.

Number does fit for a c1960 Claud.

Top tube guides and Mafac brake spigots were seen in Claud European 1959 and 60 but it had prugnat 62s lugs. So doesn’t fit for a single definite Factory model unless a lot of brazeons added later. Or a Custom Cordon Bleu build? Cordon Bleu was butted. What size seat post is it?

Number does seem accurate if on fork as well. If a c.60 Claud do I see a grease nipple top of BB? Pic of serial with placement sometimes helpful.

Do we know for a fact this shop actually predominately used rebadged Holdsworthy frames? Could it be another builder altogether. Nervex lugs were common.

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Yes, had overlooked the CB angle, the frame do have a 60's look to it. Could the brake mounts have been added later or a stock frame been modified? The fork crown and rear bridge have the std drillings for the clippers.

 

[Kman]

Re:

Thank you for the response.

I don’t know that it would of been a holdsworth or a CB. Quite possible it is something else. The shop ‘only’ opened in the mid 70’s and the yellow paint looks like an addition. The red metallic paint is of higher quality, so could be the original colour.

I’ll share some photos of the frame number locations. I think the number on the BB is in a similar position.

As you say, the lugs were used by a lot of frame builders in that period, so it may be impossible to find out its origin.

I am tempted to strip the paint right back, as it is tired. This might also give some clues. I’ll measure it up properly, as this might help too.

 

[Kman]

Re:

So I've been able to look at the frame again.

I had noted the frame number down in error. It's actually 3881, with matching number on the fork. See photo's below.

There is an oiler present, so another box ticked.

Seat post size could be a 27mm. 27.2mm i have to hand seems too tight and a 26.0mm is far too loose. I don't I have a 26.4mm to try, but this would seem loose too.





I've added the photo of the head tube as well, as there are clear badge holes. would 55mm c-c fit for a CB of this age?

Weight wise, it feels similar to the 73 Holdsworth. Not as heavy as I recall, so could be 531.

There are also elements of older paint present too, under the red on the fork it clear has gold. So I wonder on what info is out there as to colours that it might of been painted.

Looking at the other forums, it looks possible that this could be a 59 CB, that has then been modified. But, would the fluted topeyes and Campy fork ends fit this age?

 

[Kman]

Re:

Also, the drop outs are not campag, they are Simplex, the rears are stamped ‘brev simplex’. The forks are too worn to make anything out.