Holdsworth Frame Numbers

[CommanderChuff]

I would like to suggest that my 1968 professional was raced in 1968, and then recycled into a customer machine in 1970 with the necessary changes (chrome, top rail cable stop braze ons).

 

[dwscrimshaw]

I am not sure I know enough to comment, could explain the delay or just we are not that accurate. I had quick read of the nkillgariff site, would team bike have come from the shop in 1968?

 

[jules_b]

Great bit of work although I might throw you off a bit!! I have a 1967 Super Mistral (see my sig) which has the number 30511. It is definitely a Super Mistral but the year would not fit with your numbers as it would place it in 1965. The Super Mistral came out in 1967 and mine fits with similarly aged ones I have compared to (and I have seen quite a few). This one is an example - http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/bi ... sm-rb.html

I also have a Cyclone purchased in 1975 with a number 40942 (I have the original receipt from the Holdsworth shop in Putney dated 27/9/75). It could have been sitting around for a year possibly.

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Re:

Thanks for the numbers I had already come across your Super Mistral in other threads. The Cyclone is very useful; anything with a receipt of other similar documentation is like gold dust. So many of the numbers come up with about or 60's/70's which means you can place them anywhere and all that does is reinforce your view/misconception.

I do try and take a step back from time to time and make some adjustment in light of new information. The predictions are based on the use of factory numbers using a few known fixed points, production rates and as many good owners dates as I can find. This gives the earliest date we should expect for any number with frames turning up 1-2yrs later due to shop builds or sales of delayed factory frames. Hence the accuracy should be seen in this light.

We do have some good dates for 65/66, but then we get the Super Mistral’s turning up later. This could be due to development/stock build up, but I suspect inaccuracy is more of a contributor. I have in the past charted these post 65 numbers with a rising production rate similar to the 6 Digit numbers. It is these 60/70’s 5 digit numbers that there are less certain dates for so the actual shape of the graph is consequently more uncertain.

I am currently looking to update the graphs to indicate know errors and the confidence level of the numbers used. Looking again at the shape of the graph will be part of it. Documentary evidence and model recognition is far more important than the predictions, so these two numbers are great to have. I hope to have this completed soon, any further comments are most welcome.

Thanks again.

 

[jules_b]

Re:

Managed to dig it out! see below

Incidentally I think the signature is Mike Shonleben, Roy Thame's nephew who was working in the shop at the time. Not sure who Mr Chapman was!

A couple of thoughts I had

Holdsworth used to provide frames for other builders. These would be sold in batches, with the Holdsworth frame numbers, to other companies who would paint and build under their own brand, so you may find gaps in the numbers occasionally. I would not have thought this would be huge amounts.

Also I was wondering what stage the serial numbers where put on? I would have thought it was one of the final stages as the fork steerer number matches. the reason I query this is that surely they would not number the BBs before they were built into a model would they ie old bbs being put on new models?

 

[anidel]

For what is worth I own a Holdsworth which the VCC current marquee enthusiast identified as a La Variable from 1939.
The serial number on the fork steerer states: 6015

On his e-mail he stated:

This is almost certainly a 1939 built frame and is identical to the La Variable model shown in the catalogue of that year. I suppose that it could have been retailed either during or after the war and may not have had a headbadge due to the shortage of materials during the war. Bearing in mind the international situation, 1939 would not have been a good year for sales of frames. Numbering of Holdsworth frames was sequential beginning in 1933 so the idea that No.6000 coincided with 1946 is not in my view correct, though many frames in the later 6000s would have been built and retailed in 1946 or 47

Here are pictures of the frame built up with components from later times:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/anidel/al ... 6205155488

Hope this helps.

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Re: Re:

Managed to dig it out! see below

Incidentally I think the signature is Mike Shonleben, Roy Thame's nephew who was working in the shop at the time. Not sure who Mr Chapman was!

A couple of thoughts I had

Holdsworth used to provide frames for other builders. These would be sold in batches, with the Holdsworth frame numbers, to other companies who would paint and build under their own brand, so you may find gaps in the numbers occasionally. I would not have thought this would be huge amounts.

Also I was wondering what stage the serial numbers where put on? I would have thought it was one of the final stages as the fork steerer number matches. the reason I query this is that surely they would not number the BBs before they were built into a model would they ie old bbs being put on new models?

Thanks, that's really interesting to see. I think the numbers for other manufactures was kept separate until the 6 digit numbers started in 1976. We are seeing some early 70's 4 digit numbers, but other than that the 1500/yr seems to be Holdsworth only. As to when the BB number is added I not sure I know, but we do see numbers delayed, its the early numbers that are harder to explain although I do believe these are incorrectly dated in the threads. You can see this clearly for the 65/66 numbers we have. one has documentation like yours, but surrounding numbers were sold the following year. It does help to relate numbers back to factory use as this is where they were generated, then note the late sales.

Thanks again

 

[dwscrimshaw]

For what is worth I own a Holdsworth which the VCC current marquee enthusiast identified as a La Variable from 1939.
The serial number on the fork steerer states: 6015

On his e-mail he stated:

This is almost certainly a 1939 built frame and is identical to the La Variable model shown in the catalogue of that year. I suppose that it could have been retailed either during or after the war and may not have had a headbadge due to the shortage of materials during the war. Bearing in mind the international situation, 1939 would not have been a good year for sales of frames. Numbering of Holdsworth frames was sequential beginning in 1933 so the idea that No.6000 coincided with 1946 is not in my view correct, though many frames in the later 6000s would have been built and retailed in 1946 or 47

Here are pictures of the frame built up with components from later times:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/anidel/al ... 6205155488

Hope this helps.

Thanks for this, I had spotted this on the web/flicker and logged it, good to see more pictures.

This is a key number being pre-war and 6000+, I also have a low 6000 number that is reported to be purchased in 1948. It has the same pre-war headset as yours which should have been used up during 1946, see nkilgariff site. So it was either a late sale or incorrectly dated on the website. Either way I believe it to be from the start up period after the war so the two numbers nicely straddle the war break and help fix the prediction chart.

Thanks again for the up date.

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Re: Re:

Managed to dig it out! see below

Incidentally I think the signature is Mike Shonleben, Roy Thame's nephew who was working in the shop at the time. Not sure who Mr Chapman was!

A couple of thoughts I had

Holdsworth used to provide frames for other builders. These would be sold in batches, with the Holdsworth frame numbers, to other companies who would paint and build under their own brand, so you may find gaps in the numbers occasionally. I would not have thought this would be huge amounts.

Also I was wondering what stage the serial numbers where put on? I would have thought it was one of the final stages as the fork steerer number matches. the reason I query this is that surely they would not number the BBs before they were built into a model would they ie old bbs being put on new models?

Thanks, that's really interesting to see. I think the numbers for other manufactures was kept separate until the 6 digit numbers started in 1976. We are seeing some early 70's 4 digit numbers, but other than that the 1500/yr seems to be Holdsworth only. As to when the BB number is added I not sure I know, but we do see numbers delayed, its the early numbers that are harder to explain although I do believe these are incorrectly dated in the threads. You can see this clearly for the 65/66 numbers we have. one has documentation like yours, but surrounding numbers were sold the following year. It does help to relate numbers back to factory use as this is where they were generated, then note the late sales.

Thanks again

Hi. again. Would it be possible to see a photo of both your bikes?

Thanks

 

[CBguy]

Yes, it would be interesting to see pics of these frames. Were both purchased from WF Holdsworth? Sounds like they are factory made models as the Putney shop certainly had Holdsworthy frames for sale as well as their own builds.
Though, perchance do they have any shop build features? I ask because I have a '68 Holdsworth Mistral/CB Super Torino clone that does have features to suggest a shop build yet has a factory number.

Doug