Holdsworth Frame Numbering

[CommanderChuff]

Hallo Dave,

This is a very useful set of data and I thought that you like a few snippets from my recent meanderings into the world of Holdsworth.

1951 Cyclone 12331
1972 Professional 03885 (232 added by Holdsworth at some point)
1975 Competition 027271

I hope that this adds to your knowledge, and thanks for sharing,

David

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Re:

Thanks, I'll u[date file with this

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Re:

Thanks Again, I have added these numbers. The Cyclone I think one of those numbers that by my rather crude split the difference approach means it could be 50 or 51. I may work on that again as a review of the 5 digit numbers could be due.

The 1975 Competition I assume is a CB frame, but I think rather later than 75. This looks to be the common 6 digit format starting with 0. As this didn't start to around 76 I understand this number is far too high for mid 70,s. I would place this as 1981.

The 1972 Prof number is causing me some trouble, its does't look like a 6 digit number and all wrong for a 5 digit number. There was a 4 digit number system used briefly in early 60's and I have also have some other latter bikes with similar numbers. I have put it here for the time being.

Do you have any further info or background on the 70's numbers, particularly the comment that further digits were added by holdsworth? Any further comments would be helpful.

Thanks again

 

[CommanderChuff]

Re:

Hallo David,

Thanks for your response and query.

The Cyclone info came from Hilary Stone, and the age of the Comp was a guess by the vendor, so we can discount the 70's date.

The Proff is mine and was sold on the basis of a firm provendence of date and history from the original owner who was a collector. The frame number is on the front of the bottom bracket tube, and the additional Holdsworth number on underneath of the BB tube. The frame was repainted by Holdsworth but it is probably unlikely that they would have tested the validity of the frame number.

I can check the number again to make sure but otherwise have no further info.

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Thanks for the confirmation of the first two numbers, I think these are now about right. The Pro is likely to be a number I am yet to understand. Its clearly not part of the std 5 or 6 digit number system, but too many digits for the early sixties 4 digit system. Thant said I do have a couple of 4 digit numbers that are dated much later than early 60's.

I suspect the 3 digit number you say is added could be a casting number for the bottom bracket and nothing to do with the frame number. I am not an expert on the actual model details, but I think the professional frames were often quite unusual/special and could also have been race bike frames. Therefore may be carried odd/unique numbering.

Do you know any more of the history of the frame? If not it might be worth asking around the forum for identifying features that might shed light on its history. I certainly would be interested in the numbering of this frame and how it fits in with those I have been looking at.

 

[CommanderChuff]

Re: Professional number correction

Hi David,

I have just had a chat with the restorer of the professional and he has clarified that the correct number is 33835. This is stamped on the fork steerer and hopefully should fit in with the numbering system as a 1973. He also said that the 3 digit is applied by Bob Jackson when a bike goes through his workshop.

The Professional is an absolute dream to ride and compares well with my modern steel Condor and a racing Colnago Titanio. I just love my small collection of bikes.

A word of appreciation for Tim Lomas who restores Holdsworths and has produced some great machines from love and hard work. It was a pleasure to meet him and to enjoy the bikes.

Happy Riding,

David.

 

[dwscrimshaw]

Thanks for the confirmation of the frame number that makes things a lot easier. It seems the info out there on bikes in early 70's is rather vague to pin point a particular year. I have attached what I have and when trying to fit this to some sort of logical progression, see the graphs on google cloud, I would suggest this number comes in at around 1970.

I'll update the files now, see what you think.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... TNKZkN4TmM

 

[CommanderChuff]

So from your excellent database that makes my Professional (it feels really good to say that, and proud), a 1969 model and not 1973 as Tim was given to understand. Only one year after the World Championship was won on one of these bikes, it makes the purchase of it even better.

Great news, and thank you again for your diligence and work to produce the numbers database.

 

[dwscrimshaw]

I have looked at the chart again, see below. this is the original data sorted into sequential order. I have highlighted the dates I have changes to do this.

As you can see I have more frame numbers in 1970 and 1973 giving high production rates for those years. If I leave your in 1973 it will spread it further as well as being out of sequence. What I would usually do from here is to shift the numbers by a year or so to see if a more logical spread emerges.

Obviously this is all a bit of a guess with limited data for the other years.

 

[dwscrimshaw]

The problem with leaving this as it is, is that in 1973 the production volumes is more than what is suggested earlier in this thread, ie 3500 frames per year, also 1970 comes close. So with a bit more juggling of numbers to get a similar spread of numbers for each year we end up with the attached graph showing a steadily increasing production rate.

Interestingly your number is right on the trend line for 1970. that said the grouping could easily shift one year either side of this. so I guess you have to take this a rough guide as we really do not have enough good data or even numbers for the known production in this range.

Hope this helps clarify my thoughts on these numbers.

Just updated files on
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... TNKZkN4TmM