grantoury
Kona Fan
lovely zig zag and lovely joints, far removed from the opulence of some modern builders. It is a direct contact with the past, as historians call it "a historical sensation"
Fixing a Victorian
- Thread starter Nabeaquam
- Start date
Mickeyspinn
rBotM Winner
Like that. While my pasta is cooking I'm already on the 2nd glass of "historical sensation". A cheeky 2020 from Lidl.
Nabeaquam
BoTM Winner
Why do you like old wine? I like the fresh stuff that was just made, not stale stuff. You guys are into the tubing way more than I am. I just glanced down inside, saw it was different and made some assumptions. You are right, I looked again (haven’t really looked since I noticed the dimpling) and a faint line of brazing shows in a few places where the bearing cups go. Also the sheet with the holes in it partly covers the openings on the top and bottom tubing. There are small areas around the edge where it doesn’t fully cover the down and top tube openings. How or why is a mystery. Seems like a lot of fussing to save a few ounces. Why just not use heaver gauge for the head tube?
Errrh. Mmmh. I can promise you around these parts where I live, 2020 is a fresh wine. It's a decent table wine which washes food down well. It is not a wine I would gift, if I did that I would be guillotined in the village square or deported with a low cost airline, or left with an inflatable dingy at Calais. Some of the most expensive cultivated pieces of land in the world are about 130 km from me. I'm British, so by definition I just drink the stuff rather than taste it and spit it out. A properly stored aged wine from some renowned regions or identified domains, and even plots of land, it can be something else approaching a sublime level. But it needs to be cracked open to be sure, and doing that with the quantities I drink I would be broke overnight
Back to the bike, well collectively we may be getting closer to something concrete how it was built. Which is great. Somehow, I see two frames, one external (which we see) and one internal which is for the manufacturer and a place of magic hidden out of sight. Those lugs and how it butts with tubes flush without thickness difference is pretty amazing. Something must be going on inside too for that to happen.
"Seems like a lot of fussing to save a few ounces. Why just not use heaver gauge for the head tube?"
I reckon if you re-read that after some Jameson you would see you've answered your own question.
They must have done the maths, prototyping, testing and put them on the scales to decide. I just look at this frame and see they were in the business of doing the best. We don't see this stuff like that here. Not seen anything like it going in the French knackered very old bike forums.
Nabeaquam
BoTM Winner
Good discussion, I know more about vintage American and Canadian bicycle, but I own a few dandies from Belgium (cycle gantois), French late 30s or just post war with the oss gear, Claud Butler track bike, Peugeot, Moto Becane, Raleigh, pre Raleigh Hercules etc. I have a 1912 to 1917 fixed gear single bar Flying Merle, which is very rare. By then they went to gas pipes. Not unusual at all in construction. No where near the attention to quality and craftsmanship as the Vicky. By 1912 the stock holders must have been in charge. I drink some wine, but good stuff is truly waisted on me. It all pretty much tastes the same, $5.00 vs $50.00, almost no difference. In 1965 I took a motorcycle trip around Europe. Wine In France, Italy and Spain was 16 cents a liter if you brought your own bottle, 32 cents bottled. Really good French wine was $2.00 a bottle but a camping tent space was 40 cents so why bother with $2.00 when 32 cents got the job done. I don’t have a wine pallet, it all tastes pretty much the same to me. My favorite brands are “Cheap Red $#/t” and for white “Vino de U Knickers”. Extremely cheap pop wines are good, 16 to 20% ETOH, carbonated chemicals that taste like sweet strawberries or apples, but no strawberries or apples are in the ingredient list. Guzzle a bottle of pop wine and go to the pub, two beers is all you need, makes a night out very thrifty. Pop is what Michiganians call soda, like Coke. It‘s pretty much Michigan speak, that pop. But, UK beers all tasted the same to me then, I have the pallet of a 100 year old alcoholic.Errrh. Mmmh. I can promise you around these parts where I live, 2020 is a fresh wine. It's a decent table wine which washes food down well. It is not a wine I would gift, if I did that I would be guillotined in the village square or deported with a low cost airline, or left with an inflatable dingy at Calais. Some of the most expensive cultivated pieces of land in the world are about 130 km from me. I'm British, so by definition I just drink the stuff rather than taste it and spit it out. A properly stored aged wine from some renowned regions or identified domains, and even plots of land, it can be something else approaching a sublime level. But it needs to be cracked open to be sure, and doing that with the quantities I drink I would be broke overnight
Back to the bike, well collectively we may be getting closer to something concrete how it was built. Which is great. Somehow, I see two frames, one external (which we see) and one internal which is for the manufacturer and a place of magic hidden out of sight. Those lugs and how it butts with tubes flush without thickness difference is pretty amazing. Something must be going on inside too for that to happen.
"Seems like a lot of fussing to save a few ounces. Why just not use heaver gauge for the head tube?"
I reckon if you re-read that after some Jameson you would see you've answered your own question.
They must have done the maths, prototyping, testing and put them on the scales to decide. I just look at this frame and see they were in the business of doing the best. We don't see this stuff like that here. Not seen anything like it going in the French knackered very old bike forums.
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Yeah, I suppose by that time the myriad of specialists and engineering power houses had their eyes on other things.
I found a post war Peugeot at the tip a while ago. Nothing stood out except one thing - just made cheaper. Even with the additions of derailleurs, brakes and dynamo gizmos didn't mask the fact. It felt like Peugeot had given up making quality and going for popular. Stories are abound that smaller independent frame and bike builders were making their race grade stuff.
There's a nice read about Monarch here if you haven't seen it, and what a fabulous sleek looking bike too. A 1901 chainless.
https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/1901-monarch-mens-chainless/
I found a post war Peugeot at the tip a while ago. Nothing stood out except one thing - just made cheaper. Even with the additions of derailleurs, brakes and dynamo gizmos didn't mask the fact. It felt like Peugeot had given up making quality and going for popular. Stories are abound that smaller independent frame and bike builders were making their race grade stuff.
There's a nice read about Monarch here if you haven't seen it, and what a fabulous sleek looking bike too. A 1901 chainless.
https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/1901-monarch-mens-chainless/
Nabeaquam
BoTM Winner
On another vintage site the prudents say that bike is older, 1898 I think, with different bars. Other sites I’ve recently read indicate that the Monarch corp was sold to a bicycle consortium and made bicycles to 1905, another says 1907. Most sources say 1892 to 1899. I do think Monarch struggled along after the 1900 huge bicycle bust. Some think they made a few for national hardware chains. They were famous for their chainless bicycle, which is much rarer than the Columbia chainless. It seems no one really knows much about this brand. People assume that the bb numbers are consentual, if so, mine has a higer number than the 1897 ones. It look’s like there was another number on the bb, but it looks like is was hot rolled over, or melted and smeared so it illegible. Maybe the bb maker number, another mystery. People have found two old newspaper wanted advertisements from 1897 that are asking for the return of new stolen Monarchs with the serial number given. There is also a sales receipt for an, I think, 1898 Monarch with the serial number listed and that is higher than the 1897, so they assume they just labeled them with the number produced. That’s all I know. My crank spindle is stamped 62-0-8. Can’t mean 1908, does it represent anything?
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Nabeaquam
BoTM Winner
The chain stay is still pressed in a little. The hydraulic rig a ma jig didn’t get it completely straight. It’s probably been dented for 60 - 80 years. I’m hoping if I leave it stretched with my Expando Gizmo for a day that will eventually remember where it belongs. I’m close to paint but before I weld the crack shut, I want it as close as possible to straight. It’s straight in this new sorta jig, but I think it will spring back. If this doesn’t work I’ll over straighten it, but it’s hard to get it to move, my hands aren’t strong enough to move it more. I’ll probably have to use Vice Grips or a welding clamp to close the Expando Gizmo if I over straighten.
The nasty crack in the chain stay. It’s from when I tried to straighten the bend and take out the dent with a puller. The weld for the puller rod must have made it brittle because I heard the crack when it was in the jig. I think the ancient crash bent the bars and crank arm and ruined the pedal by chipping off part of the outer pedal race. That must have been a dandy crash.
The nasty crack in the chain stay. It’s from when I tried to straighten the bend and take out the dent with a puller. The weld for the puller rod must have made it brittle because I heard the crack when it was in the jig. I think the ancient crash bent the bars and crank arm and ruined the pedal by chipping off part of the outer pedal race. That must have been a dandy crash.
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