EU, impartial facts. Where to find

[hamster]

About the best summary here in the FT:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0ac5b098-1ce2 ... z495tVfHnK

In short:
"The pro-European camp has won hands-down the economic argument of the campaign. The IMF was only the latest of many independent institutions, national and international, to declare that Britain would be poorer for breaking with the EU. Brexit would hit investment, jobs and living standards. The response of the Leave side has been to allege some vast international conspiracy to trick the British electorate."

 

[technodup]

In short:
"The pro-European camp has won hands-down the economic argument of the campaign.

Notwithstanding that's bollocks anyway, it's moot if you consider democracy and self determination the primary issue.

The response of the Leave side has been to allege some vast international conspiracy to trick the British electorate."

Conspiracy might be a bit strong but the fact is we've had EU mission creep for four decades. What we have now, and moreover what we're going to get in future has never been ratified by the British electorate.

It's an out from me.

 

[jonnyboy666]

Re:

political thread, this is gonna be dodgy ground!

but i will admit it's something i'm interested in and unsure about.

there are things i don't like about being in the EU, most of which stem from our politicians (all of them regardless of party) back in the day not doing their jobs properly and not standing up for us as a country which i feel means we have had the crappy end of the stick compared with other nations.

i don't like scare mongering though, from either side, i don't feel that either side has confirmed any facts properly.

with the economic thing which for me will be the main thing, Boris is saying we put in X amount and it costs us loads but we don't get it back but the Pro side say we get back X amount more for every pound we put in, who is right? honestly i don't know who to believe.

immigration, again i see pros and cons, personally i don't mind anyone coming to england as long as it is done legally and they pay their way, just like i did when i went to NZ, it was work and i paid tax there and so should anyone who comes here, i don't believe in the EU we have the same level of border control, i realise we are more responsible for our borders than mainland europe as we are an island but the free movement thing in someways is not ideal, and Ireland has become a back door to the UK.

free movement, this can be good and bad, normal people no problem but it means it's easy for not normal people like terrorists etc.

benefits, lets face it, our system is open to abuse (from both uk people and immigrants) and legally we have to give out more than a lot of other countries that if we go elsewhere we are not entitled to, so to me that is unfair.

human rights and the european laws, i don't like that europe can overturn our supreme court, in fact i really hate that.

the red tape loving bureaucrats who piss away money, frankly i think there is a huge amount of corruption there and if we are out atleast we only have our lot of numpties to worry about.

i do feel like germany and france have more influence over us than we do with them, basically it doesn't feel equal to me.

adding more countries to the EU, i never agreed that Greece should be added, it was the wrong decision then and europe has paid the financial price, they should have been told yes you can come in when you meet the criteria but exceptions were made by the red tape bureaucrats and then europe and specifically the greek people paid the price, all the bad decision of letting them in did was cause problems yet they are chasing more countries to join up.

the workers rights thing, personally i don't think it will affect me now as i'm self employed so i work as much as i need to, i'm already doing 6 day weeks mostly 12 hour days for currently no wage until the business can afford to pay me so either way i won't be better or worse off! but for the masses? i've seen no proof good or bad, and either way we have unions some of which help some of which don't and at the end of the day we are not (currently) a 3rd world country in the dark ages so i can't see it suddenly getting worse than it is for anyone regardless of the social/class level someone is at.

information sharing between the police etc, i've heard this will stop, personally i think that's rubbish, if terrorists etc are being chased across europe they'll talk to each other about it, it would be ludicrous to think interpol or whoever wouldn't tell us and it would go the same way from us.

Obama's comment about being at the back of the queue, there may be an element of truth there, trade deals would take a while, it's convenient for america to deal with us as a bulk state, but i believe that we'd not see much difference there but generally i haven't seen any information on exports etc either way, again basic scare mongering is what i have seen "oh it will be terrible! nobody will deal with us!" hmm i don't think so.


so the pros? what are they? do we make money from bring in the EU? i don't know! all i hear is the negatives other than money we supposedly make but if the financial thing isn't proven which makes me think Exit.


the list above is just the problems i see now, will it all suddenly improve if we leave, probably not, but it doesn't seem like it will improve if we stay in
either!!

so i think it won't make much difference to me personally.

but that's just my 2p's worth.

 

[technodup]

Re: Re:

i don't feel that either side has confirmed any facts properly.

For every remain 'fact', leave has a counter 'fact' and vice versa. In other words there are no facts, only opinions.

My issue with remain (amongst others) is the way they conflate Europe and EU. We can still buy from, sell to, accept people from and visit Europe without being stuck in a political and increasingly economic union.

The scaremongering from remain about the economy, threat of war etc is shameful. We'll still buy BMWs and champagne from them and they'll still buy whisky and computer chips from us. We'll still go to Spain on holiday and they'll still come to London or the Highlands for theirs. The idea that we leave and we're going to fall into some economic chasm just isn't credible.

 

[Osella]

Re:

One fact that is available and should be more widely understood is that of lawmaking.
There are no EU laws in the UK - this is a fact.
All UK laws are just that, UK laws, and the same is true of every member state.

When a new EU-wide law is brought in, each member state must (in accordance with the conditions of membership) then introduce that law into their own statutes within a given timeframe (provided it is constitutional, otherwise on occasion different timeframes are permitted and that country has to change their own national constitution to fit the new EU law..)

If you think back to the Lbs & Oz vs kg fines - it wasn't EU inspectors fining those market traders; it was UK trading standards, as there was now a UK law insisting that produce be sold in metric measurements.
Likewise the 'EU working-time directive'. There is no such "law" in the UK; what the UK has done is pass a UK law which imports the EU regulations and enshrines them into the UK statute book. The wording is the same, but it's a UK law now.
UK Governments do not have to do this; but there would be EU penalties were they not to, possibly suspension or expulsion etc (see Latvia).

The reason why this is vital to understand is that if the UK were to leave the EU - all of those laws are still UK laws - they will not disappear, as they are on the UK statute books.

In order for those laws to be changed or removed, they would need to pass through Parliament on a bill, and then be ratified by the House of Lords.
While it is theoretically possible for workers rights' legislation for example to be removed under a non-EU UK Government; think about the likelihood that enough MP's of all parties would agree, vote, agree again, ratify, pass to the Lords and that the Lords would then read, agree, vote and then ratify and THEN pass into law widespread removal of workers rights..

If you understand this one fact; then you can begin to see who's speculation is scaremongering or not; and make your own decisions better.

 

[M-Power]

Re:

Why did it take 15 court appearances and £25M to remove Abu Hamza ? Answer, the ECHR can seemingly overturn decisions made by UK Judges and the Home Secretary for various spurious reasons. It's a legion of greedy lawyers milking the tax payer with no respect for our safety and security. That money would be better spent on healtcare and education.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ab ... er-1363430

 

[technodup]

They now want to 'create a more level playing field' by forcing Netflix to show more European films. The playing field is already level. It just happens that European films tend to be a) shit and b) in languages nobody else understands.

This bullshit isn't what we agreed to. The US is probably the most level playing field there is, the idea that the EU meddling with quotas will make our viewing better is laughable.

There is literally nothing which they think they can't make better by having some more laws or regulations. And we're paying for it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05 ... t-is-euro/

The voter card dropped through my door this week. I'm tired of it, it seems we've had a vote every few months recently. IndyRef, GE, Holyrood and now this crap, and IndyRef2 always on the horizon. More politics and more politicians is not the answer.

 

[highlandsflyer]

Re:

I hope there is an option on the ballot paper for: "Just Give All Rule To The Germans Already."

At least we might have less crappy fast food.

 

[M-Power]

Re: Re:

I hope there is an option on the ballot paper for: "Just Give All Rule To The Germans Already."

At least we might have less crappy fast food.

Plenty of the clued up older generation wonder why they put their lives on the line for this country in WW2. We all know 'in' will win. Fear of the unknown is too powerful a decision maker. The only hope for the UK in the next few years, is that other nations ask for referendums too and either fracture the EU or even better, we all get the Brussels autocrats to do what the people actually want. Cooperate on security and counter terrorism, justice for criminals, protection against invasion, economic clout as a bloc, less meddling in our lives and profligate waste of our money etc.

 

[unkleGsif]

Re: Re:

Why did it take 15 court appearances and £25M to remove Abu Hamza ? Answer, the ECHR can seemingly overturn decisions made by UK Judges and the Home Secretary for various spurious reasons. It's a legion of greedy lawyers milking the tax payer with no respect for our safety and security. That money would be better spent on healtcare and education.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ab ... er-1363430

You do realise that we basically wrote the ECHR ...?

http://www.theguardian.com/culture/vide ... r-us-video