EU, impartial facts. Where to find

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And how many of those 500million are coming here?

Not taking into consideration the Brits who are migrating to mainland Europe

If we're such a big economic player in the EU an still can't get our way from time to time, then it shows what a shower of shoddiness this government is.
Not that I'm suggesting Corbyn would be any better. Worse still I imagine. When are we going to get a prime minister with balls?
Please don't say with Boris or Farage! I mean really! :LOL:
 
Mike,

I think you have found the heart of the problem - we only have career politicians who only think of the next election and themselves rather than thinking of the next generation, and regardless of your personal politics they are pretty much as bad as each other.

Regards
 
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Mike Muz 67":1fabaq3m said:
And how many of those 500million are coming here?

Not taking into consideration the Brits who are migrating to mainland Europe

If we're such a big economic player in the EU an still can't get our way from time to time, then it shows what a shower of shoddiness this government is.
Not that I'm suggesting Corbyn would be any better. Worse still I imagine. When are we going to get a prime minister with balls?
Please don't say with Boris or Farage! I mean really! :LOL:
Well said Sir..
 
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Mike Muz 67":mxmzgaah said:
And how many of those 500million are coming here?
We have no idea, which is erm, kind of the point. To assume not that many will is a big and expensive assumption.

Mike Muz 67":mxmzgaah said:
If we're such a big economic player in the EU an still can't get our way from time to time, then it shows what a shower of shoddiness this government is.
For once I don't blame our government. The EU is stacked against us by design.
 
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JohnH":311mxn24 said:
@johnnyboy666, @hamster:
Do you guys in the New Forest remember the Transit plant that was shut down in Swaythling and moved to Turkey with the help of an EU loan?

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/1002027 ... lose_ours/

Even after that, Nick Clegg was still rabbiting on about how "the EU is good for jobs and prosperity".


[Edit: I forgot to mention that the Swiss have just withdrawn their application to join the European Union -- "Only 'lunatics' would join now"...

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06 ... -join-now/ ]

Of course I do. Note that is it a loan not a grant. Note that in April 2016 unemployment in Southampton was 1.5%. That sounds like a tight labour market. However I also remember the EU money when I lived in Derwentside which helped stabilise things after the Consett Steelworks shut taking the pits with it. 40% male unemployment then.

However, there are other longer-term goals to consider. Helping nearby countries stabilise and develop is an investment in their stability and as future markets for our goods and services. The Americans got this dead right in 1945 with the Marshall Plan - otherwise exactly how many failed states do you want on your doorstep? A similar development plan in the late 50's provided the seed to take South Korea from being poorer than Sudan in 1957 to what it is today.

Overseas development is probably the best way to prevent mass migration and instability. There wouldn't be Syrians and Iraqis banging on the doors of Europe if their countries weren't in civil war.

This is a subtle argument demanding a longer-term view of things. It's political catmint to scream about building a wall, however it is short term-ism.
 
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hamster":36u9j1h7 said:
Of course I do. Note that is it a loan not a grant. Note that in April 2016 unemployment in Southampton was 1.5%. That sounds like a tight labour market. However I also remember the EU money when I lived in Derwentside which helped stabilise things after the Consett Steelworks shut taking the pits with it. 40% male unemployment then.

However, there are other longer-term goals to consider. Helping nearby countries stabilise and develop is an investment in their stability and as future markets for our goods and services. The Americans got this dead right in 1945 with the Marshall Plan - otherwise exactly how many failed states do you want on your doorstep? A similar development plan in the late 50's provided the seed to take South Korea from being poorer than Sudan in 1957 to what it is today.

Overseas development is probably the best way to prevent mass migration and instability. There wouldn't be Syrians and Iraqis banging on the doors of Europe if their countries weren't in civil war.

This is a subtle argument demanding a longer-term view of things. It's political catmint to scream about building a wall, however it is short term-ism.


Bingo! Exactly my point put so much better than I did.


I couldn't care less what they want to do.

If we control our own borders like every other country on planet earth it wouldn't matter what they want. We'll take those we need and no more.

f**k the EU.

These are your words techndup and in my opinion show an inward looking, narrow minded and bitter person. If we present ourselves as self centred, self serving and selfish, unwilling to help others to help themselves how do you think the rest of the world will view us?
 
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Pinched this from another site but having received the same leaflet last night it seems quite appropriate:




I said I’d stay out of it. I said I’d keep my opinions to myself, but I was tipped over the edge by arriving home today to find a pamphlet in my other half’s name, and on the same doormat, a lies-ridden rag in my own name.

I started scribbling a response on it, which the intention of mailing it back to them, but after a few minutes listening to the sound of my own indignant breath snorting through my nostrils, I realised the only way I could expunge this fury was by battering my keyboard into submission.

Respectfully, Vote Leave, I would like to unsubscribe from future communications, and here’s why:

It is a pack of lies. Seriously, this is GCSE-level stuff. We as a country are about to take the biggest decision of several generations, one that could not feasibly be undone in my lifetime, and we’re being asked to do so on the basis of lies, half-truths, distortions and, in case that wasn’t enough to hoodwink you, a bit of old-fashioned racism to boot.

Lie #1: Over a quarter of a million people migrate to the UK every year
And over 300,000 people leave the UK every year
( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general ... -year.html )
(but because they’re British, they’re called “Expatriots”). You can argue the toss about whether free movement of people within the EU is a good or a bad thing, but you cannot argue that it doesn’t work both ways. You can also argue the toss about whether immigration is a net good, but when a leading Leave campaigner comes out to say that immigration was only a positive until 2002 (when those nasty east Europeans were allowed in), I start to smell racism, and hear a dog-whistle.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ea-leadsom

Lie #2: The EU is expanding to include Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey.
Not strictly true this one. All of the above have expressed their interest in becoming members - in Turkey’s case, as far back as the 1980s - but none are close to having full membership just yet. Yes, Turkey does have a very large population, that’s right, and yes, new members would have the same rights… including a veto on new members. Does the UK have a veto on new members?

Yes, it does. Unless it leaves, when it doesn’t. See also Lie #6.

Lie #3: The EU has changed enormously since 1973
Thank you Sherlock; so have most places. I almost gave you a pass on this one, until I noticed the rather disingenuous claim about needing to prop up the Euro… erm, we’re exempt from Eurozone bailouts. Next.

Lie #4: EU law over-rides UK law
You almost had me on this one, but you need to look at the small print… immigration, counter-terrorism, prisoner voting… thaey are not ECJ decisions, but ECHR decisions. And that is a totally different story. Excuse me while I go off on a tangent…

What they actually want to exempt us from is the European Convention of Human Rights, membership of which is a precondition of EU membership. They would instead replace the Convention with a British version - telling called “rights and responsibilities” - which would defeat the entire principle of universal human rights that we the UK helped to forge. Namely, that regardless what the government of a particular country thinks at any given time you are entitled to be treated with dignity.

Why did we create this principle? Because about 65 years ago, one of our neighbour states changed its laws to allow itself to gas 6 million people within its territory. In doing so, they did nothing illegal but breached every standard of human decency. So after that, we decided it would be a good idea to write down that “standard of human decency” just in case anyone was in any doubt.

So if you belive Lie #4 on the basis of the examples they offer there, then you are falling for one of the bigger porkies of human history.

Lie #5: The EU costs us £350m a week
This isn’t so much a lie as a cluster-lie. It’s several lies packed into one big one. Let me break it down a little:

Lie #5.1 £350m a week.
Which doesn’t count a) the rebate, b) the funds we receive in EU grants for projects we’d otherwise have to fund out of government spending.

Lie #5.2 Enough to build a new hospital…
Spare me. Frankly, if you fall for this one you deserve all you get. Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Chris Grayling and Nigel Farage the defenders of the NHS and British public services? Despite their track records in government and / or stated public positions to the contrary?

Lie #5.3 We have no control over how it’s spent
Rubbish, because…

Lie #5.4 That’s decided by politicians and officials in Brussels…
Who we elect! Commisioners are appointed by member states governments, and the European Commission’s proposed laws are subject to ratification by the European Parliament, which is so democratic it actually gives anti-EU parties such as UKIP disproportionately more seats than their share of vote entitles them to. For example, in 2014 UKIP got 25% of the vote in the UK, and received 35% of the UK’s seats. In the British elections to the Holy Seat of Democracy the following year, they received 1m more votes and took home a paltry one seat.

Lie #5.5 … not by the people we elect
This is not technically a lie. They should be decided by the people we elect, but the **** never turn up.
( http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 16962.html )

Lie #5.6 [On the reverse they equate this figure to £19bn a year]
£19bn a year is about 2.4% of the UK government’s annual £770bn spending. So turn that into household budgeting… imagine you earn a typical salary of £35k, meaning you take home about £2,100 a month. The equivalent would be a subscription that cost you £51.66 a month. So, on a par with your gym membership or Sky Sports subscription.

Lie #5.7 We get less than half of that back
49.2 % actually. That’s worse than Spain, which just about breaks even, and certainly much worse than Poland which contributes -22%. But compared to Germany, which only gets back 39%, we’re doing pretty well. More here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_ ... pean_Union

Lie #6 You don’t have to be a member of the EU to trade with it
First bit’s true. Switzerland’s a really bad example though. Why choose Switzerland when it undermines your argument so badly? Switzerland and Norway are part of the wider European Free Trade area, which allows them free access to the common market in return for accepting a few conditions like freedom of movement for EU citizens… which kind of undermines your racist fearmongering from Lie #1.

And as for all UK firms having to obey EU rules, are these the rules you want to emancipate us from?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSgaiTdWoAAhYvD.jpg

Lie #7 While we’re in the EU we can’t negotiate our own trade deals
Two points in response to this: 1) the USA has already said that negotiating a trade deal with the UK wouldn’t be a priority, and 2) most small businesses don’t do import / export. There you’re just re-hashing lie #6.

Lie #8 There are risks in voting either way
Experts, politicians and business are divided. I’ll give you politicians, and maybe give you busin… nah, who am kidding? This is Captain Redbeard Rum’s “opinion is divided on the subject" which he clarified as "all the other Captains say it is, I say it isn’t.”

Lie #9 [Special Bonus Racist Dog Whistle]
What the hell are Syria and Iraq doing on this diagram? Are they applying for EU membership too?

So no, all in all, my mind’s made up, and I think you can save yourself some postage by taking me off the list.
 
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hamster":1rntpsoq said:
Overseas development is probably the best way to prevent mass migration and instability. There wouldn't be Syrians and Iraqis banging on the doors of Europe if their countries weren't in civil war.

The irony..
 
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hamster":3mlbxyvh said:
However I also remember the EU money when I lived in Derwentside which helped stabilise things after the Consett Steelworks shut
As one of the largest contributors, that 'EU money' is OUR money, less the cost of it being recycled through Europe.

brocklanders023":3mlbxyvh said:
Lie #1: Over a quarter of a million people migrate to the UK every year
And over 300,000 people leave the UK every year
Respectfully, this is retard level stuff. Notwithstanding we have positive net migration now, the question is about tomorrow. If there is a problem with the €, or lack of jobs, or political unrest or whatever, 500 million are free to come here. No amount of implied racism is going to make that a good idea.

brocklanders023":3mlbxyvh said:
Lie #2: The EU is expanding to include Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey.
Not strictly true this one. All of the above have expressed their interest in becoming members - in Turkey’s case, as far back as the 1980s - but none are close to having full membership just yet. Yes, Turkey does have a very large population, that’s right, and yes, new members would have the same rights… including a veto on new members. Does the UK have a veto on new members?

Yes, it does. Unless it leaves, when it doesn’t.
Again, it's not about today. We're voting for tomorrow, and next year and probably our lifetimes. In which time the EU will change beyond recognition.

brocklanders023":3mlbxyvh said:
Why did we create this principle? Because about 65 years ago, one of our neighbour states changed its laws to allow itself to gas 6 million people within its territory.
And that same state is now calling the shots over countries like Greece and Spain who are unable to devalue their currency to remain competitive. Who have mega unemployment because they're in the Eurozone. Who would have to (if anyone wanted to) take in unlimited migrants and provide services for them.

brocklanders023":3mlbxyvh said:
Lie #5.3 We have no control over how it’s spent
Rubbish, because…

Lie #5.4 That’s decided by politicians and officials in Brussels…
Who we elect! Commisioners are appointed by member states governments, and the European Commission’s proposed laws are subject to ratification by the European Parliament,
We DO NOT elect EU commissioners. See a Mr Neil Kinnock. Rejected twice by us, appointed to the EU and lording it ever since at our expense.

And the 'parliament' can only ratify. Not reject or repeal. We have literally no means to get rid of something we don't want.

That's not democracy in anyone's language. And that is the crux for me.
 
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highlandsflyer":357kgzr5 said:
hamster":357kgzr5 said:
Overseas development is probably the best way to prevent mass migration and instability. There wouldn't be Syrians and Iraqis banging on the doors of Europe if their countries weren't in civil war.

The irony..

SO you don't consider stability in the Middle East and North Africa to be in our interest? Should we withdraw from patrolling in the Mediterranean?

It would save some taxpayer £££s. In fact, why not have a coastal navy. After all we are simply spending money in somebody else's country...

...or does what happens abroad actually profoundly affect us?

And beyond the English-speaking world, who are our most natural allies if not Western Democracies? What are your suggestions?
 
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