Ellis Briggs NOT gone into liquidation

[Canuk]

To quote Kermisking

'I think frame building is too romanticised . Ellis Briggs's proprietor a one man band bit off more than he could chew . To offer frame building courses , build frames , do you tube and run a shop front store you are making a rod for your own back'.

This is exactly the lot of any artisan in the 21st Century. My son is self employed in a similar niche product making business. Without offering courses, literature, online and offline content he'd be finished financially.

To make it at all profitable, you need to be across several different platforms simultaneously, updating content on a daily basis, and have multiple income streams and leverage any skill sharing or knowledge you have to the max.

He works 12 hours a day, six days a week. In tough times it's non stop, no breaks. For sure, making content for YouTube/Instagram etc is time consuming, but it's absolutely essential today if you want to attract business/run courses/seminars etc. The 'cash grab' statement up thread made me chuckle.

Any one man operation is going to struggle in hard times or when illness comes along. I think a lot of the criticism is from people who have no idea the pressures and all consuming fire of running a small business day in day out. I would imagine Paul is not making a great living out of the frame building business. But clearly he's very passionate about it, and keen to share his knowledge.

I was lucky enough to spend a bit of time with Les Rigden, a truly superlative frame builder and steel artist. But his waiting lists were years long, and his list of excuses were legendary. However, the wait for the finished frame was always worth it. He made everyone else look efficient!

When thinking about ordering a frame from a bespoke builder, think about the hundreds of hours (and decades of experience) that come before you get your sweaty mitts on a thing of beauty. You're not buying a Specialized or a Trek, laid up in moulds by 50 women in a Taiwanese sweat shop, painted in a carousel with half a dozen other manufacturers at the same time.

Some things are worth the wait, and the headaches. These are almost certainly the end times for steel bike frame production in the UK. I can't see a single builder surviving the end of the decade in any meaningful way. Most folk will probably be reduced to repairs and repainting, as cheap, good quality steel products from China and Taiwan take most of the market.

Enjoy them while you can.

 

[ESM]

To quote Kermisking

'I think frame building is too romanticised . Ellis Briggs's proprietor a one man band bit off more than he could chew . To offer frame building courses , build frames , do you tube and run a shop front store you are making a rod for your own back'.

This is exactly the lot of any artisan in the 21st Century. My son is self employed in a similar niche product making business. Without offering courses, literature, online and offline content he'd be finished financially.

To make it at all profitable, you need to be across several different platforms simultaneously, updating content on a daily basis, and have multiple income streams and leverage any skill sharing or knowledge you have to the max.

He works 12 hours a day, six days a week. In tough times it's non stop, no breaks. For sure, making content for YouTube/Instagram etc is time consuming, but it's absolutely essential today if you want to attract business/run courses/seminars etc. The 'cash grab' statement up thread made me chuckle.

Any one man operation is going to struggle in hard times or when illness comes along. I think a lot of the criticism is from people who have no idea the pressures and all consuming fire of running a small business day in day out. I would imagine Paul is not making a great living out of the frame building business. But clearly he's very passionate about it, and keen to share his knowledge.

I was lucky enough to spend a bit of time with Les Rigden, a truly superlative frame builder and steel artist. But his waiting lists were years long, and his list of excuses were legendary. However, the wait for the finished frame was always worth it. He made everyone else look efficient!

When thinking about ordering a frame from a bespoke builder, think about the hundreds of hours (and decades of experience) that come before you get your sweaty mitts on a thing of beauty. You're not buying a Specialized or a Trek, laid up in moulds by 50 women in a Taiwanese sweat shop, painted in a carousel with half a dozen other manufacturers at the same time.

Some things are worth the wait, and the headaches. These are almost certainly the end times for steel bike frame production in the UK. I can't see a single builder surviving the end of the decade in any meaningful way. Most folk will probably be reduced to repairs and repainting, as cheap, good quality steel products from China and Taiwan take most of the market.

Enjoy them while you can.

In principle, I agree with you. However, in the case of EB, there are a couple of salient distinctions.

Firstly, re: the frame-building side, I can't speak about the custom aspect since I haven't experienced that process, however the EB course website states "At the end of the course you will have a finished frame, unless you want to leave it with us for painting.". Therefore, there simply isn't any expectation of waiting for years in the same way as you might a custom build (especially by a quality builder with a reputation for excuses/delays).

Secondly, the majority of negative reviews/experiences come from customers who have sent either already-complete frames or bikes to EB in need of repair. For those possessions to go missing (resulting in legal action) or to be returned with poor workmanship (see @petgel and @Tsundere above) somewhat undermines the overall message being conveyed by the business owner, regardless of his 'passion' and 'knowledge'.


Ultimately, if there are valid reasons for delays, there should be no reason for Paul to be ghosting his customers. It's as simple as that, really.

 

[Canuk]

Every frame builder I've ever met has had a litany of excuses, some legitimate, most not. My pal waited 4 years for a bespoke Les Rigden, we still have a laugh at the wild excuses he made, but what a work of art he produced. Les main business was repairing classics, I can just about remember his huge workshop space in Brighton, stuffed to the gunnels with every rare British and European frame you could imagine. He was never known for a fast turnaround. Repairs were rarely done in under 12 months.

To play devil's advocate, say he has 200 frames to repair a year, 90% of which are posted in. And a frame a week to build, and a course a month. Add to all of that the absolute necessity of probably two hours a day spent working on YouTube/Instagram/Facebook etc. (advertising your niche businesses online is a non negotiable given). Yes, it is work, it's not play!

Every frame has to be unboxed, inspected, report written, probably quote sent to owner, repaired, reboxed (very time consuming) taken to post office and shipped. I've packaged a frame for international shipping, it's a royal pita. Imagine doing that 3 or 4 times a week. Then managing all your traffic and enquiries for frame building courses, sourcing the materials, negotiating stupid pre course questions, and then finally finding time to build your own frames. The flip side of this coin is customers who never bother to pick their frames up, or worse 'forget' to pay. When I visited Bob Jackson I was shown the 'orphan' frames, probably 50+ who never bothered to collect (or pay).

In addition to all of the above the daily tasks like book-keeping, paying bills, workshop chores, telephone enquiries, people looking for their repairs like yesterday, ordering , and it's easy to knock someone who doesn't respond immediately to an email.

My son fortunately has a list of customers length of his arm, he's not short of business. But he has rules. He does not play email tennis with anyone. No one gets a reply within 48hrs of first message, and he is not harassed by telephone calls (he doesn't take them). You'll wait for your order, like everyone else, he's not making washing machines. He is contactable via email and Instagram. And that's it. That's pretty much the norm for artisan producers nowadays, just not enough hours in the day. The first year of business he learnt the hard way.

In short, it's easy to knock someone in a niche business. I imagine there are a few disgruntled/jealous 'graduates' of his frame building course out there to level criticism. The problem with bad feedback is that customers leave it on a whim nowadays and very few people bother to leave positive feedback, even when it's overdue.

In short, like it or not artisan frame builders are on the verge of extinction, and carping from the sidelines of an anonymous online forum (however justified you might think it is) is only going to hasten the end of a great British tradition. These people aren't doing 'ordinary' jobs, they are doing something that very few people can replicate. That's what they are paid for. And they are willing to share their huge skillset with others. For that they get my respect.

 

[Tsundere]

Every frame builder I've ever met has had a litany of excuses, some legitimate, most not. My pal waited 4 years for a bespoke Les Rigden, we still have a laugh at the wild excuses he made, but what a work of art he produced. Les main business was repairing classics, I can just about remember his huge workshop space in Brighton, stuffed to the gunnels with every rare British and European frame you could imagine. He was never known for a fast turnaround. Repairs were rarely done in under 12 months.

To play devil's advocate, say he has 200 frames to repair a year, 90% of which are posted in. And a frame a week to build, and a course a month. Add to all of that the absolute necessity of probably two hours a day spent working on YouTube/Instagram/Facebook etc. (advertising your niche businesses online is a non negotiable given). Yes, it is work, it's not play!

Every frame has to be unboxed, inspected, report written, probably quote sent to owner, repaired, reboxed (very time consuming) taken to post office and shipped. I've packaged a frame for international shipping, it's a royal pita. Imagine doing that 3 or 4 times a week. Then managing all your traffic and enquiries for frame building courses, sourcing the materials, negotiating stupid pre course questions, and then finally finding time to build your own frames. The flip side of this coin is customers who never bother to pick their frames up, or worse 'forget' to pay. When I visited Bob Jackson I was shown the 'orphan' frames, probably 50+ who never bothered to collect (or pay).

In addition to all of the above the daily tasks like book-keeping, paying bills, workshop chores, telephone enquiries, people looking for their repairs like yesterday, ordering , and it's easy to knock someone who doesn't respond immediately to an email.

My son fortunately has a list of customers length of his arm, he's not short of business. But he has rules. He does not play email tennis with anyone. No one gets a reply within 48hrs of first message, and he is not harassed by telephone calls (he doesn't take them). You'll wait for your order, like everyone else, he's not making washing machines. He is contactable via email and Instagram. And that's it. That's pretty much the norm for artisan producers nowadays, just not enough hours in the day. The first year of business he learnt the hard way.

In short, it's easy to knock someone in a niche business. I imagine there are a few disgruntled/jealous 'graduates' of his frame building course out there to level criticism. The problem with bad feedback is that customers leave it on a whim nowadays and very few people bother to leave positive feedback, even when it's overdue.

In short, like it or not artisan frame builders are on the verge of extinction, and carping from the sidelines of an anonymous online forum (however justified you might think it is) is only going to hasten the end of a great British tradition. These people aren't doing 'ordinary' jobs, they are doing something that very few people can replicate. That's what they are paid for. And they are willing to share their huge skillset with others. For that they get my respect.

While that's all true every situation is different. Every business is run by different people in different ways. There are great businesses and there are bad businesses. Being a frame builder doesn't automatically make you exempt from criticism.

We can look at any niche industry and the same applies, the fact that it's a dying art doesn't excuse sloppy workmanship, broken promises or worse. In fact a dying industry needs better representatives if it wants to continue existing. No niche industry can survive bad actors spreading ill feeling among an equally niche customer base. How many have already been driven away from hand built frames to the mass producing behemoths where at least people know they'll get reasonable service and no excuses.

Nobody expects an artisan to have the work completed overnight, people who love steel bikes are happy to wait for high quality workmanship, and they accept there can be delays and unexpected developments that slow the process down. What irks is waiting months longer than agreed for poor workmanship, zero communication and sometimes no end product at all.

While we all understand the desire to defend a dying breed, natural selection works and some specimens need to fall by the wayside so the species as a whole can thrive.