Early Post War Allin Frame ?

[VeloFellow54]

I am new on here and am seeking information on an Allin frame that I have recently acquired and intend to restore. This one is becoming something of a challenge as the frame number (672 - on both rear dropouts and on the fork tube)) would seem to indicate that it is quite early post war. The decals certainly support this but the construction of the frame does not - at least not entirely.
The seat tube carries the 'SPECIAL (not clear) STAN BUTLER MODEL' transfer. The head tube has Allin Cycles Ltd with the 57 - 59 Whitehorse Road address - this being a transfer - not a metal badge. The frame with forks is lightweight (almost the same as a 1951 Claud Butler 'Massed Start' frame that I have), has interesting lugs (not Nervex) that have been 'cushioned' to a degree. Overall it is a very nice frame and would seem to date from around 1947/8 ? I have checked and cannot find another Allin frame with similar lugs - and really do not wish to spend time and money on this until I am sure what I have.
Any help that can be given would be most appreciated. I (hopefully) have added some photos.

 

[VeloFellow54]

Re:

Here are a few more photos showing details of this frame.

 

[OldTel]

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Hi, nice find, the Stan Butler specials Allins were top notch, and they were usually built by Peter Cobb. I wouldn't worry about the lack of a headbadge, it was post WW2, and materials were in short supply, there is a piece on the lightweight http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/bu ... allin.html classic web site on Alins. There are not many Allins about, hence the lack of visibility on the interweb, so give it the build it deserves. Terry

 

[VeloFellow54]

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Thanks Terry
What I did not mention was that the frame has twin brazed on lugs and guides for shifters - highly unlikely for a frame from this date - and they do not appear to have been added later. Certainly I could remove those on the left side - but should I ? Also, I have been accumulating parts for this frame - So far, 27 inch conloys on low flange airlite hubs, GB hiduminium callipers with the early GB levers, stratalite maes bars, maybe a williams chainset ? Or perhaps a gnutti single ring that I have. But the big question is gears. I have a rare simplex champion du monde 46 (the unit that changed to 'Tour De France' after 1947), but this requires a braze on bracket on the chainstay - like a cyclo. I really do not want to mess with the frame until I know what should/should not be there. I certainly do not really want to put a campag unit on it - I doubt very much that it would have had one back in the '40's. Bit of a dilemma really.
Steve

 

[OldTel]

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Hi Steve, derailleurs are restricted for this period, the best one being Simplex tour de france, if needs be I usually just go for something looks period, i.e. if you have spacing for five speeds a campag grand sport would do. I was interested in you comment about simplex champion du monde, I have one on my Sun Wasp ( barely covers three speeds ) https://www.flickr.com/photos/tk_photos ... ateposted/, is this the one you have ? As far as brazon, if you want period correctness, take them off, but there were put on for a reason and are useful, also they are part of the frames history, so its your call. Also check if the frame takes a 27 inch wheel, some were designed for 26 inch at this time. Terry

 

[VeloFellow54]

Hi Terry, I had to smile when I read yours. I made a huge mistake when I checked wheel sizes and brake reach etc for this frame. I measured the forks only - then found a pair of 26 inch constrictor rims - only to realise that rear calliper bracket to dropout distance demands 27 inch !! Fortunately I had the 27 inch constrictor rims on airlites that I had originally intended to to use on a claud butler (I have a pair of dunlop stainless lightweights on bayliss continentals also that will suit the CB). I know that during the 40's 26 inch was more common than 27 ! As to Simplex - I like the setup on the wasp. My idea was to use the '46/7 mech in the picture attached (3 speed at a guess)- being the monobloc 46 version. The other pic is a NOS unit that I located (in Poland of all places) but is a later Tour De France (again 3 speed). Not sure I want to us campag though - Were many imported pre 1950 ?
Steve

 

[OldTel]

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Hi Steve, that's a lovely thing, I've not seen one of those before. Would that fit on a cyclo brazon, as I had a bike with a cyclo setup that had a chain stay clamp which the cyclo derailleur was bolted too. This might be worth looking for at jumbles, I've a grainy piccie attached. Terry

 

[VeloFellow54]

Hi Terry, Thanks for the photo. I have considered the twin cable Cyclo for the Allin (Nick Tithecott has got some of these I think - NOS)
I have a '37 BSA Gold Vase frame with a cyclo braze on - and yes - the Simplex fits ! It should do as the Birmingham cyclo mech was a copy of the original French one and Simplex would have made their mechs to fit the same bracket.
As I understand it the Simplex Champion Du Monde was available as a chain stay mount (huge numbers of French bikes had these brackets as you will know - although I have never seen this version of mech before or since and understand that it was only in production for about 1 year) and claw mount (which I think is what you have on the Wasp ?)
The winner of the 1947 Tour De France won using this derailleur (your version ?) and it was then re-named 'Tour De France'. They made millions of these and the variations seem endless to me. I could be wrong though - this is based on info from Dancing Chain and the web.
I know that the braze on bracket is available (I think Hilary Stone has some). But should I add one to the Allin frame ? The frame number would appear to indicate that the frame is about 1947/8 (Nervex lugs appeared here about 1950 and would have been used after this date) and frame numbers in the 800's are recorded for 1950 (mine is 672). I know it is irrational as the frame will be stripped and stove enamelled anyway, but I want to get this one period correct if I can. I have managed this on the CB and the Holdsworth that I am restoring but the Allin is a little more important to me as I doubt that I will ever see another quite the same.
I suppose I could do what others do and stick a b*****y Shimano on it !!!
Steve

 

[roadking]

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I've seen these lugs on an Allin - a friend has one. There were a number of Stan Butler models including the Special (I have two Specials - had three but sold one).

Allin were my LBS for many years, and see my contribution to the Allin page on CL. I have another friend who was a long time employee (20yrs) of the shop and knew Cobby well.

Post an image of the seat cluster, we can then identity whether or not it is an SBS. The absence of a badge could mean two things - (1) it is not an Allin, or (2) it was refinished and the headbadge mislaid or lost...what is unusual is the frame number on both dropouts (image?).

Jon.

 

[VeloFellow54]

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Thanks Jon
I have added photos showing the frame number stamped into both dropouts - although one is not very clear as it has been somewhat 'chewed up' but wheel nuts. Also a picture of the number stamped into the fork tube. Lastly I have added a photo of the seat cluster. I hope that this will enable accurate identification and an idea of date.
Steve