Claud Butler-Holdsworth frame numbers 1959-1976
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Peachy!
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Hello Eric (Tarbyarmy) yes I got your email and yes I saw this on ebay.
I'm not 100% sure its a Claud so have posted your pictures here in the Holdsworth Claud thread as the number 2733 would suggest a 1959 model post take-over, maybe someone can shed some light on it.
As I said, I'm not sure what it is, but what we do know is that out of the five bikes advertised in 1959 (Challenge, Coureur, European, Olympic & Cordon Bleu) it's definitely not an Olympic or Cordon Bleu.
They did have a few odd bits and bats, tubes and lugs in the receivers pile, but none of these look like anything off of the original Clauds and I don't recognise them from any of the holdsworth Clauds either....but then they may have been trying out different suppliers etc on the lower end models.
The metal head badge is correct for 1959-1980, the seat tube graphic is wrong as its from post 1979 and also the down tube signature is from pre 1956 and the chrome job is aftermarket.
Sorry if that's all a bit doom laden.... It should build up to be a nice bike so don't be downhearted.
If it were mine I'd clean up the rust spots on the chrome then get it re-sprayed with a translucent "flamboyant" coloured lacquer or "candy" paint directly over the chrome, it will sing in the sunshine!
I'm not 100% sure its a Claud so have posted your pictures here in the Holdsworth Claud thread as the number 2733 would suggest a 1959 model post take-over, maybe someone can shed some light on it.
As I said, I'm not sure what it is, but what we do know is that out of the five bikes advertised in 1959 (Challenge, Coureur, European, Olympic & Cordon Bleu) it's definitely not an Olympic or Cordon Bleu.
They did have a few odd bits and bats, tubes and lugs in the receivers pile, but none of these look like anything off of the original Clauds and I don't recognise them from any of the holdsworth Clauds either....but then they may have been trying out different suppliers etc on the lower end models.
The metal head badge is correct for 1959-1980, the seat tube graphic is wrong as its from post 1979 and also the down tube signature is from pre 1956 and the chrome job is aftermarket.
Sorry if that's all a bit doom laden.... It should build up to be a nice bike so don't be downhearted.
If it were mine I'd clean up the rust spots on the chrome then get it re-sprayed with a translucent "flamboyant" coloured lacquer or "candy" paint directly over the chrome, it will sing in the sunshine!
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Tarbyarmy and Peachy,
I'd say frame # 2733 is likely a 1959 Coureur.
The lugs appear to me to be the pattern of Nervex Legere lugs (head tube 86bis/15 that were used for Holdsworthy/Claud Coureur at start up in 1959. The seat cluster and BB lugs also appear to be pattern 158. The Coureur is advertised in catalogue as Nervex lugs (unfortunately specific pattern unspecified) for first several years of production. As an aside, it also appears to me that this particular Legere pattern was also used during surrounding years with Holdsworthy/Grubbs.
We have at least 4 other examples in dwscrimshaw's Excel data base that have this earlier type of Nervex Legere lug and they all presently predict to 1959. (#'s 1493, 2714, 3224 & 3371) Unfortunately a lot of the quoted sources for these frames no longer exist.
http://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folde ... TNKZkN4TmM
Following 1959 the Nervex Legere pattern used for Coureur lugs appear to have gone to the more commonly recognized pattern as in Peachy's 1961 Super Coureur #9081. (I believe pattern 48/161) See pics below of Peachy's and Tarbyarmy's head tube views for comparison of Legere patterns. Following link is a very good reference to 1958 Nervex catalogue and I have also attached one pic from this site: https://www.flickr.com/photos/stronglig ... 1987782099
I believe Peachy already has noted that the only other frame with Nervex Legere lugs was the Olympic but it would have had track ends. Also as noted the "higher end" Cordon Bleu had Nervex Pro lugs. So Nervex Legere lugs on a Claud road frame point to the Coureur.
Curiously, Tarbyarmy's #2533 seemingly has different angles - perhaps individual builder variation? Also frame #2533 has different pump peg placement (TT) compared with catalogue (on DT).... which could be explained by simple evolution of Holdworthy/Claud Coureur design. It is helpful that frame #2714 in database likewise has pump peg placement under TT and in fact, next catalogue available (1961) pump pegs are shown as under TT. Pics don't show well but it appears? that #2533 has a lamp boss on fork as Coureur would have. I expect frame #2533 is plain gauge Reynolds as Coureur? - seat post diameter may help sort that out.
IMhumbleO and sorry for the "dissertation".
Doug
I'd say frame # 2733 is likely a 1959 Coureur.
The lugs appear to me to be the pattern of Nervex Legere lugs (head tube 86bis/15
that were used for Holdsworthy/Claud Coureur at start up in 1959. The seat cluster and BB lugs also appear to be pattern 158. The Coureur is advertised in catalogue as Nervex lugs (unfortunately specific pattern unspecified) for first several years of production. As an aside, it also appears to me that this particular Legere pattern was also used during surrounding years with Holdsworthy/Grubbs.We have at least 4 other examples in dwscrimshaw's Excel data base that have this earlier type of Nervex Legere lug and they all presently predict to 1959. (#'s 1493, 2714, 3224 & 3371) Unfortunately a lot of the quoted sources for these frames no longer exist.
http://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folde ... TNKZkN4TmM
Following 1959 the Nervex Legere pattern used for Coureur lugs appear to have gone to the more commonly recognized pattern as in Peachy's 1961 Super Coureur #9081. (I believe pattern 48/161) See pics below of Peachy's and Tarbyarmy's head tube views for comparison of Legere patterns. Following link is a very good reference to 1958 Nervex catalogue and I have also attached one pic from this site: https://www.flickr.com/photos/stronglig ... 1987782099
I believe Peachy already has noted that the only other frame with Nervex Legere lugs was the Olympic but it would have had track ends. Also as noted the "higher end" Cordon Bleu had Nervex Pro lugs. So Nervex Legere lugs on a Claud road frame point to the Coureur.
Curiously, Tarbyarmy's #2533 seemingly has different angles - perhaps individual builder variation? Also frame #2533 has different pump peg placement (TT) compared with catalogue (on DT).... which could be explained by simple evolution of Holdworthy/Claud Coureur design. It is helpful that frame #2714 in database likewise has pump peg placement under TT and in fact, next catalogue available (1961) pump pegs are shown as under TT. Pics don't show well but it appears? that #2533 has a lamp boss on fork as Coureur would have. I expect frame #2533 is plain gauge Reynolds as Coureur? - seat post diameter may help sort that out.
IMhumbleO and sorry for the "dissertation".
Doug
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Here's head tube pics of Claud #3224 which certainly appears to be in original paint and badge. This is one of frames referenced in my prior post and also is a 1959 Claud with Nervex Legere lugs pattern 86bis/158.
Link scavenged from Dave's database:
https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=102 ... 9696008947
Link scavenged from Dave's database:
https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=102 ... 9696008947
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To Doug,
Thank you for your input. I’m glad we came to almost the same conclusion.
BTW the seat post is 26.4.
To Peachy,
Thank you once again.
If it is indeed a 59 CB what frame decals do you think are authentic? Presumably the “short stubby signature 50x22mm” on the down tube and the “Holdsworth CB 1959 70x50 mm” on the seat tube both on the H Lloyd site?
To you both,
I intend to restore the frame and build it back to presentable and useable condition. I will add period parts when I can obtain them but my immediate concern is the frame itself. The chrome is absolutely shot in places and rust has also eaten into the frame in a couple of places. I think I can save the front forks, head tube, head lugs and about 4 inches of the rear stays. The rest has to be taken down to metal and treated before re-spray. Any ideas how to tackle this, gents ?
Thank you for your input. I’m glad we came to almost the same conclusion.
BTW the seat post is 26.4.
To Peachy,
Thank you once again.
If it is indeed a 59 CB what frame decals do you think are authentic? Presumably the “short stubby signature 50x22mm” on the down tube and the “Holdsworth CB 1959 70x50 mm” on the seat tube both on the H Lloyd site?
To you both,
I intend to restore the frame and build it back to presentable and useable condition. I will add period parts when I can obtain them but my immediate concern is the frame itself. The chrome is absolutely shot in places and rust has also eaten into the frame in a couple of places. I think I can save the front forks, head tube, head lugs and about 4 inches of the rear stays. The rest has to be taken down to metal and treated before re-spray. Any ideas how to tackle this, gents ?
Peachy!
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For a pretty accurate Coureur decal layout, check my ‘61 in the link below.
As for paint prep, good old fashioned elbow grease and wet & dry sandpaper. Start a build thread and ask the question there, plenty will jump on and give you some advise.
As for paint prep, good old fashioned elbow grease and wet & dry sandpaper. Start a build thread and ask the question there, plenty will jump on and give you some advise.
Tarbyarmy":1wtw1s1k said:
According to Kilgariff by 1959 it seems only Reynolds 531 was being used by Holdsworthy. So unless there is an identification mark for A&P somewhere I think the Coureur would have been plain gauge 531. (a 26.4mm seat post would point to plain 531 versus DB)
Quote from Kilgariff Holdsworth history site:
"Accles & Pollock Kromo tubes were heavily promoted in the early 1950's, but Accles soon withdrew from the bicycle market. Reynolds tubes and lugged construction became the norm."
Looking at catalogues of Holdworthy models by 1956-1957 there does not appear to be the option of Accles and Pollock as mentioned in early 50's.
I do favour the Coureur as opposed to a Grubb model of same vintage because of the serial numbers and the fact your frame does have CB labelling - for what that is worth. Realistically these two bare steel frames with Nervex Legere (86bis/15
lugs were basically the same.