Claud Butler help please

[bagpuss]

I reckon old tel is right . I do not know when CB dropped to clip type h/s ie pre war or post war . Oilers suggest pre war . The top of the rear stay is different to my old pre war CB.
Claud Butler mid 1930's by rebalrid, on Flickr

Claud Butler mid 1930's by rebalrid, on Flickr

 

[keithglos]

Re:

This is clearly not bi-laminate, it has specially cut cast lugs. It has a 1938 style so around or after 1938 to early post war.

Keith

 

[bagpuss]

Re:

Keith do have any knowledge as to which model to frame is?

 

[Swanny]

Re:

Thanks
That all makes sense as I couldn't at first rationalise the decals with the frame build and age. Seems like a strip and respray is the answer. I guess that somewhere there must be info on original colour schemes?

 

[keithglos]

Hi Bagpuss,

I had my first decent bike in 1948. Mrs. K had an Avant Coureur bi lam in 1955. Our existing partnership began when I changed her Simplex T de F for a Campagnolo GS.

it must be one of several "Continental" models, but the spec could be individual.
Certainly a lot of work went into the lugs, I can't tell if they are Chater or perhaps Brampton. Claud was using early 531 butted I think in 1938. The lugs were probably supplied 73/71, but usually could be pulled a degree.

It can be a problem getting the loose bearing rings for the headset, probably the same as many roadster bikes, some have had them made specially.

I remember having a conversation with Claud at the cycle show about 1955, can't remember what it was about.

Keith

 

[Swanny]

Thanks for that Keith.

Sorry if these questions are basic but its really interesting to learn all of this and build from a personal knowledge base of practically zero!

From what you say it seems these are cast lugs then. And possibly by Chater Lea although I can't see any markings on them to indicate that. Out of interest do you know if the lugs were first cast in a rough shape at the desired angle and then the intricate patterns cut by hand? Would the final pattern have been supplied cut by Chater Lea or finished by Claud Butler?

Noted regarding the bearing rings.

Can I just thank everyone for their contributions. Its been a fascinating exercise in finding out about this frame and the history behind its manufacture.

Nigel

 

[keithglos]

Hi Nigel,

Cast lugs were made from malleable cast iron and were used on roadster bikes with very little modification For the lightweights the cutouts helped the brazing flow and were developed into decoration. A lot of cutting and filing before the frame is built.
By the 1930s most bikes were built with pressed and welded lugs.
You can find catalogues for Chater lea, Brampton and BSA cast lugs.

In the 1930s club/time trial bikes went through a strange fashion for small frames with very shallow angles, when continental bikes had angles around 72 to 74 degrees. Claud Butler used the mame "Continental" almost in a generic sense, as he made both shallow angles and the rather more modern steep angles. If you have a look at the 1930s catalogues you will see the progression.

Keith

 

[sdp2112]

Re:

I believe the braze-ons are for a chain oiler. Oil goes in the top and the oiler 'arm' (missing) can be tilted to drip oil onto the chain.

 

[Swanny]

That's great. Had one on a previous motorbike (scottoilers are often fitted on chained motorbikes) but never heard of it on a cycle!

 

[Losgaintir]

Re:

Another small dating point, are the rectangular style mudguard stay eyes, located some way up their respective tubes.
This was the style in use immediately pre war and up to about 1950.
Later versions incorporate a rounder style eye, into the front and rear dropouts
If you are not happy about paint removal from the underside of the bottom bracket to establish the number, then the steerer tube route is the way to go.
Be prepared for the fact that the stem may well be seized in the steerer tube!
Patience, plus gas, Cider vinegar, Coca Cola have all been successfully employed in the past, so do not be in a hurry
Good luck and look forward to hearing the number and date, Really nice bike
Colin