Claud Butler Frame Recognition

[Northern_Monkey76]

Can anybody out there help me with the dating of my Claud Butler frame? I would like to know the build year as to whether the frame is actually a Claud Butler or Holdsworth built Claud.

The serial number on the frame & forks is 5213. On the bottom bracket it is located centrally positioned @ approx 6 O'clock . There are no other numbers on the bottom bracket or steerer tube.

The info I know regarding this frame. My father purchased this frame around 1960, but i believe it was possibly 2nd hand when he acquired it. I seem to remember he mentioned the name as 'Courier' or similar (my memory fades). I have investigated CB catalogs & have found similar looks lugs on the Cavalier '56 range, but where these lugs used on courier models also?

Any help would be much appreciated. The sentiment behind the frame is whats most important, but it would be nice to know the exact detail of the frame.Take no notice of the parts, I used this frame for many miles in the peak district as my 1st bike in the early 90's slowly down grading it to work fixie. Time for its comeback!

Photos at the following url - https://www.flickr.com/photos/146179047@N08/

 

[CBguy]

Hi there,

The serial number 5213 by itself suggests to me that this frame is possibly from the early 60's, Holdsworthy/Claud Butler era. Round about 62-64 Holdsworthy used a rotating number system with out a number code for year of build, thus serial numbers for each of those years were limited to 4 only digits. Judge for your self, but it you look at the nkilgariff.com website your frame head lug and fork crown details looks identical to the closeup of the 63 and 64 Challenge frame, which also appears similar (although poor catalogue detail) to several complete bicycles that were offered. However... this doesn't seem to quite fit time frame you describe or does it?

Doug

 

[Northern_Monkey76]

Hi thanks for the info. The V-CC Library has the Challenge '65 brochure & I agree the lugs etc are identical. The lug work on both Challenger & Cavalier frames seem to be very similar, unfortunately I have no views of the lug work for the forks on Cavalier models yet.

I had debated the challenge id, but as you say it did not fit with the information. Then again I am trying to recount a conversation when I was 14 (25yrs ago) with my father who as trying to remember details 30 years earlier (info could be sketchy).

I wonder if after Holdsworth bought out the Claude name they took on 'left over' items & re-used them on later models. If my info is correct Holdsworth used the Claud name as a type of secondary range? I seem to think this happened to many of the marquees parts after they were bought out, but again as i'm new to retros my info is extremely limited.

 

[CBguy]

Hi Northern_Monkey76,

Yes, I believe it is correct re Holdsworthy using Clauds but even more so Grubbs and MacLeans as "secondary" models which were only built with plain gauge tubing. Back in the 60's there certainly were top end Holdsworthy Clauds. My '68 Super Torino, all 531DB, was identical to the Holdsworth Super Mistral which was the top Holdsworthy frame, at least until the Professional arrived. I don't know re using "left over" items when Holdsworthy took over Claud Butler, but certainly was true for the Grubb and the beautiful Perfection model lugs. The Claud bilaminate construction and fillet brazed frames were not continued when Holdsworthy took over.

On closer inspection of your frame; the remnants of pump pegs on bottom side of TT, a grease nipple hole on bottom (?) of BB and rear der. cable guide on top of BB were all more common for 60's Holdsworthy frames.

Doug

Hi thanks for the info. The V-CC Library has the Challenge '65 brochure & I agree the lugs etc are identical. The lug work on both Challenger & Cavalier frames seem to be very similar, unfortunately I have no views of the lug work for the forks on Cavalier models yet.

I had debated the challenge id, but as you say it did not fit with the information. Then again I am trying to recount a conversation when I was 14 (25yrs ago) with my father who as trying to remember details 30 years earlier (info could be sketchy).

I wonder if after Holdsworth bought out the Claude name they took on 'left over' items & re-used them on later models. If my info is correct Holdsworth used the Claud name as a type of secondary range? I seem to think this happened to many of the marquees parts after they were bought out, but again as i'm new to retros my info is extremely limited.

 

[Piperdave]

Re:

Claud did continue to make cycles following the bankruptcy. In Streatham, South London....Wasn't very successful though, only lasted a few years.

 

[CBguy]

Interesting. Piperdave's c1963 Claud Butler Cordon Bleu is one of those early 60's Holdsworthy Clauds with a 4 digit number (387X). A beautiful frame. Nervex lugs are different than those on OP's frame, which I believe are Prugnat 62/S.
viewtopic.php?p=797996&highlight=#797996url