Claud Butler - Carpenter - Vintage Bike - Wheel Help

[Woz]

Look at the 3 arms on the chainset your chainrings are bolted on the inside of the 3 arms. They should be bolted on the outside of the 3 arms engaging on the visible shoulder. Compare the pictures.

You are right. But I personally I wouldn't touch it for the moment. There may be a good reason. For example he squished in a 5 speed hub, re-dished the wheel and wanted a more inboard crank to help the chainline. Does appear dangerously close to the chain stay.

Without the rear spacing dimensions we will not know.

@WhtANightmare - we may be loosing you a bit on technical waffle, but it's for the greater good

I think right now is a time to understand what you have, and don't lay in anything with a spanner. Time to look at details and just see if you can get a complete bike together with what you have found. Later a deep clean will require tools and understanding.

Going to say right now: This is a beauty. There's no stop-watch on you. Take it slow because it's antique really and needs respect.

For a newbie this is quite a challenge to say the least, but it's been done before.

 

[Guinessisgoodforyou]

Do you mean that these mounting points should be hidden behind the chain ring? So if I was to undo the fixings and move the chain ring to the front and re-attach that should be correct?

Very odd that the grandad would have done that by mistake considering he seems to have picked out some good bikes/gear, so would assume he should know this stuff too lol

Yes, that, it's on the wrong side. As @Woz says there may be a reason, which is why we need the rear spacing. It is very close to the chain stay.

 

[WhtANightmare]

Yes, that, it's on the wrong side. As @Woz says there may be a reason, which is why we need the rear spacing. It is very close to the chain stay.

I'll try measure that tomorrow.

When it comes to freewheels is it easy enough to move one onto another wheel if I have a hub/rim that is in better condition than the others?

 

[Guinessisgoodforyou]

I'll try measure that tomorrow.

When it comes to freewheels is it easy enough to move one onto another wheel if I have a hub/rim that is in better condition than the others?

You ideally need a matched pair of wheels. Freewheels have more than one sort of extractor/key. They can be exceptionally tight, but yes in theory you can. This assumes the wheel spindle is spaced correctly. This is where it gets tricky and wheel buildy

 

[Imlach]

Hey bud @WhtANightmare

This looks like quite an undertaking altogether. The key is, when getting into bike wrenching, to take on what seems manageable and something that you genuinely have a desire to complete. But one has to be realistic. With older bicycles we are talking standards that aren't easily sourced and of course we have to take into account the neglect that comes with decades of no usage.

Now the thing is you've got your hands on quite a cracker of a bicycle there, as you've probably already realised due to very keen idle hands willing to guide you in this. Now when someone ends up working on something a little more special and unique, there's a few different mindsets that kick in, but in retro circles, like you've sought there's a tendency to want a full restoration.

If this is quite too much of a mouthful for you I recommend taking a few step backs and really delving into various different sides of wrenching, understanding the terminology and then listening to the very wealthy advice you've received and using theirs and yours intuition to realise something beautiful. Alternatively I would recommend it is left to someone with more experience, perhaps you could get someone on here directly involved or ask a shop - though I'm sure a shop would tell you to chuck it in the bin.

But at the end of the day it's your choice, but I think it's worth thinking about.

 

[WhtANightmare]

You ideally need a matched pair of wheels. Freewheels have more than one sort of extractor/key. They can be exceptionally tight, but yes in theory you can. This assumes the wheel spindle is spaced correctly. This is where it gets tricky and wheel buildy

Thanks Guinness, hopefully over the weekend I'll have some time to sort through the wheels, freewheels, etc I've got and measure up the spacing, and even if I can't do it myself I can at least understand what would need to be done.

I'm pretty sure I have a matching set of BHC defiance hubs which have Dunlop Special Lightweight Rims on them and in my eagerness to get on with things I have some 27 x 1 1/4 tyres to go on them as these are definitely that size rim as they are clearly marked on the rims lol. These are in the best condition out of all the wheels except the 3 speed freewheel on it doesn't appear to work with the chain size on the carpenter so assume one of the 5 speed freewheels I have on the other hubs is the correct one. So hopefully these can be swapped round although knowing my luck it won't be quite so simple as that seems to be the general jist of this project lol.

 

[Guinessisgoodforyou]

Thanks Guinness, hopefully over the weekend I'll have some time to sort through the wheels, freewheels, etc I've got and measure up the spacing, and even if I can't do it myself I can at least understand what would need to be done.

I'm pretty sure I have a matching set of BHC defiance hubs which have Dunlop Special Lightweight Rims on them and in my eagerness to get on with things I have some 27 x 1 1/4 tyres to go on them as these are definitely that size rim as they are clearly marked on the rims lol. These are in the best condition out of all the wheels except the 3 speed freewheel on it doesn't appear to work with the chain size on the carpenter so assume one of the 5 speed freewheels I have on the other hubs is the correct one. So hopefully these can be swapped round although knowing my luck it won't be quite so simple as that seems to be the general jist of this project lol.

3 speed 1/8" chain Carpenter 3/32" chain. They sound very promising as a wheelset.

 

[Imlach]

Adding to my point,

Because it is, rather apparent, to me at least, that you're somewhat out of your depth. And being on a forum full of vintage bike enthusiasts, I think you've honestly got all the cards in your hands. I'd utilise that. Find ways to achieve a build that both is what you want but also one that truly embraces the value and quality of this bike.

Getting into bike wrenching can be a messy business as you butcher one bike after another but it's great fun learning.

But this isn't the sort of thing that's really worth learning on, it's something you hone your craft on

 

[WhtANightmare]

Hey bud @WhtANightmare

This looks like quite an undertaking altogether. The key is, when getting into bike wrenching, to take on what seems manageable and something that you genuinely have a desire to complete. But one has to be realistic. With older bicycles we are talking standards that aren't easily sourced and of course we have to take into account the neglect that comes with decades of no usage.

Now the thing is you've got your hands on quite a cracker of a bicycle there, as you've probably already realised due to very keen idle hands willing to guide you in this. Now when someone ends up working on something a little more special and unique, there's a few different mindsets that kick in, but in retro circles, like you've sought there's a tendency to want a full restoration.

If this is quite too much of a mouthful for you I recommend taking a few step backs and really delving into various different sides of wrenching, understanding the terminology and then listening to the very wealthy advice you've received and using theirs and yours intuition to realise something beautiful. Alternatively I would recommend it is left to someone with more experience, perhaps you could get someone on here directly involved or ask a shop - though I'm sure a shop would tell you to chuck it in the bin.

But at the end of the day it's your choice, but I think it's worth thinking about.

Thank you for the kind words @Imlach, the thing for me is I love to learn, I love a project and I love to get involved.

I certainly wouldn't attempt anything without guidance/help that I felt was beyond my capabilities, with my main hope just being to initially getting one of the bikes rideable.

If I manage to learn along the way to do other bits and bobs I'd love to be able to apply that going forward whether it's building a bike for my son when he's older enough or helping people in a similar position to me (if I get good enough to do so)

So whilst the bikes may not be with some of these absolute legends who have helped me so far, I'm hoping I can do enough to feel proud of my involvement in restoring a extended family memory.

 

[WhtANightmare]

So the spacing between the dropouts is 120mm, and I managed to get the 3 speed freewheel off of the BHC defiance hub. So hopefully I just need to find a 5 speed hub that fits.

In accordance with what @Guinessisgoodforyou said earlier I assume this should mean I need to find a 3/32 chain 5 speed freewheel.

How would these typically be listed on eBay or such? (Mostly as I don't fancy trying to mess with the Harden Hub in case I can re-use that for the CB.)

Unless of course someone has a 5 speed hub that would fit they'd be willing to sell on (price dependant)