Cheeky rim swap over - tools, technique, tips & hints.

[FluffyChicken]

A 217 to 230 might be complicated by the spokes being a bit too short.

a 217 spoke length (typical-ish for comparison) would be 262/264
a 230 would be 265/267 at the shortest for the same setup. (If I have my rim diameters correct, that's where the nipple sit*, not actual diameter)
You can't have too much spoke in the nipples ?

My rim swap (for similar ERD) would be undo all slightly and then undo to almost undone and then you can line up the rims. pop them across, you do this laid on its side. The spoke pattern keeps it shape (assuming 3x).
Then for the price of new nipples, it's much easier (as you've found out) to to use a full set. unless recent prices have send them more than a few quid a box.

Not done that in a long time, I just build from scratch normally. But been putting of a build for quite a few months now.



*though that's not what ERD is, ERD iirc is end of the spokes.


Like to read from books, then grab Roger Musson pdf book out for a few quid and print the needed pages out. Quite a nice read.

 

[novocaine]

14 gauge brass nipples. 8 quid for 100 on evilbay.

or buy new spokes while you are at it. 12 quid for 36 stainless halo J bend (not butted) with nipples.

the last wheels I did were on the winter bike, I had to respoke them as every other spoke I undid snapped like a tooth pick thanks to be being plain steel. I now have enough spokes to redo another wheel.

 

[Joe*Pro]

I wondered if that might be the case, but they seemed such similar rims.

Dam it, full bloody rebuild with new spokes and all. learnt my lesson.

think I can recycle the spokes fir the next rim swap after this as it’s another 217. Assuming the hub isnt to different.

 

[FluffyChicken]

I wondered if that might be the case, but they seemed such similar rims.

Dam it, full bloody rebuild with new spokes and all. learnt my lesson.

think I can recycle the spokes fir the next rim swap after this as it’s another 217. Assuming the hub isnt to different.

hubs tend to be very similar and then not as much of a problem, 217 will be fine.

If I go in the loft at some point I can double check a 230TIB sizing.

 

[FluffyChicken]

Found the docs that actually has some measurements Look at Rim End Spoke (this is what is used as ERD, later Mavic quoted it a bit differently)

217 = 539mm and 230 = 545mm, which means in straight line across, a spoke would need 3mm longer each side for a 230.
You can see that if you know the construction, the top of the rim where the tyre goes is the same, the 217 is 19.5mm deep and a 230 ~ 15.2mm deep, and the nipple and spoke end sits on the other side of that inner part.

 

[Joe*Pro]

hubs tend to be very similar and then not as much of a problem, 217 will be fine.

If I go in the loft at some point I can double check a 230TIB sizing.

The 217 sunset swap is what came off this build (Alivio hubs) to now go on a hope hub of same period.

3mm looks exactly like what’s still showing on the thread currently. Me thinking feck I’ve gotta tighten these up a lot more

 

[Joe*Pro]

View attachment 564112View attachment 564110

Found the docs that actually has some measurements Look at Rim End Spoke (this is what is used as ERD, later Mavic quoted it a bit differently)

217 = 539mm and 230 = 545mm, which means in straight line across, a spoke would need 3mm longer each side for a 230.
You can see that if you know the construction, the top of the rim where the tyre goes is the same, the 217 is 19.5mm deep and a 230 ~ 15.2mm deep, and the nipple and spoke end sits on the other side of that inner part.

Well I never spotted that. Having looked at those catalogs a few times. Idiot.

so for my 121 ceramics going on M900 hubs, can I just order some 547mm divided by 2 = 273.5mm wheelsmith spokes ?

Is that how that works or do I still need this online calculator thing

in fact that set is just swapping DX hubs for M900 hubs. But would like new spokes & nipples whilst doing it.

 

[novocaine]

Use the calculator. Its not hard to measure up for. (Sapim) In fact i did it lastnight for a set of ringle roms on to disc hubs. Shame i didnt count the spokes before i did. 32 hole hubs dont work with 36 hole rims.

https://www.sapim.be/spoke-calculator

 

[Tootyred]

DONT.......DONT....DONT...go by the book, im not sure how loud i can shout this, but if you want an unmitigated disaster, just use the sizes given by the manufacturer. As a guide, yes, as gospel, no.

Also as fluffy chicken points out, you do need to esure both rims share the same erd, prior to swapping over.

Measure your own rims in three places, add the results together, them divide the total by 3.

You dont want spokes too short, nor do you want them out of the nipples puncturing the tube. The spoke engagement with the nipple is massively reduced if the they are only a mm or so too short. See here to see what i mean......look at the percentages under each photo.

https://www.kstoerz.com/freespoke/tech-threadengagement.php
Whilst you will probably get away with short spokes, if your taking the time to build a nice set of wheels for yourself, why not get it right first time.

Having a nice, calm, enjoyable wheel building experience is all about doing your homework FIRST!

 

[Joe*Pro]

DONT.......DONT....DONT...go by the book, im not sure how loud i can shout this, but if you want an unmitigated disaster, just use the sizes given by the manufacturer. As a guide, yes, as gospel, no.

Also as fluffy chicken points out, you do need to esure both rims share the same erd, prior to swapping over.

Measure your own rims in three places, add the results together, them divide the total by 3.

You dont want spokes too short, nor do you want them out of the nipples puncturing the tube. The spoke engagement with the nipple is massively reduced if the they are only a mm or so too short. See here to see what i mean......look at the percentages under each photo.

https://www.kstoerz.com/freespoke/tech-threadengagement.php
Whilst you will probably get away with short spokes, if your taking the time to build a nice set of wheels for yourself, why not get it right first time.

Having a nice, calm, enjoyable wheel building experience is all about doing your homework FIRST!

Got Ya …but ok I’d of thought to use just to check if 2 Mavic rims from a similar period are viable like for like swap overs or not, without having to go to the garage and measure everything in the dark for the calculations.