Campagnolo 8-sp freehub, vs 9 or 10 (or 11)

[garethrl]

Hi guys,
Can the resident Campagnolo experts confirm whether there was a fundamental change in design in freehub/spindle design when Campag went from 8-speed to 9-speed? I've done a bit of searching and have read in a few places that with a few highly esoteric exceptions it's not possible to retro-fit a 9-speed freehub to a hub or wheel designed for 8-speed. The freehub spline pattern looks fundamentally different between the two, to name one obvious difference.

Since I want to switch the new Merckx to 10-speed and in any case much prefer the shape of the second generation Ergos over the first, then should I simply replace the rear wheel? The one that came with the bike is not the original and is nothing special, so I wouldn't be giving much up.

Finally, am I correct to conclude that Campag 9-, 10 and 11-speed all share a common freehub body, or is life never that simple? Actually, I'm not really concerned with 11-speed, but it's good to know for completeness!

Cheers,
Gareth.

 

[Toff]

Campagnolo made lots of different 8-speed freehub bodies, with 3 different spline patterns.

8-Speed
- The first was the pre-Exadrive spline pattern, which came out in 1991. All splines were the same width.
- Next was the ExaDrive spline pattern, which came out in 1994. It was almost the same, but one spline was widened to prevent the cassettes being put in the wrong rotational position on the freehub body. Position was important for Exadrive to allow for smooth gear changes.
- At the very end of 8-speed (1996 from memory), Campag came out with an 8-speed titanium cassette, with a new freehub design.

Notes on 8-speed.
- Exadrive cassettes will work with pre Exadrive hubs.
- Pre Exadrive cassettes will NOT work with ExaDrive hubs, due to the one wider spline.
- 8-speed titanium cassettes are basically composed of thick 9-speed sprockets, and will fit 8-speed titanium freehubs, as well as 9, 10 & 11 speed.
HOT TIP!!!
- My favourite hubs are pre Exadrive hubs. You can use the newer Exadrive cassettes as well as the older 8-speed cassettes, so you know that just about every 8-speed cassette will slide on. The other really clever thing that I don't think anyone has ever realised is that since the spline pattern is reversible, when your cassette wears out, you don't have to chuck it away. you can simply turn the worn out cog(s) around and you effectively have a brand new cassette again. No other cassete allows you to double its working life this way. Sure, you don't get super smooth gear changes, but we're not racing on this stuff anymore, so who cares? There's an awesome money saving tip for you all, but it only works if you have the Pre Exadrive 1991, 1992, 1993 or 1994 hubs.

9-speed
The design was essentially the same as 8-speed titanium. I have never tried but I would expect that 8-speed titanium would be compatible with 9-speed, but with a slightly shorter length to the freehub body, since you only need 8 sprockets.

10-speed
Lighter design with fewer splines, but the same essential spline pattern as 9-speed, meaning that 9 and 10 speed cassettes are interchangeable with 9 and 10 speed freehub bodies.

Some people report that it is possible to get 8-speed cassettes to slide onto the 9/10/11 speed freehub bodies, thereby providing compatibility between 8-speed cassettes and later hubsets. I personally would never try this, even if it is possible to do. 8-speed cassettes had lots of shallow splines, whereas later versions had fewer splines which were much deeper. Mounting an 8-speed cassette on a later freehub body will damage the freehub. Since the freehub bodies are alumium now, and the 8-speed sprockets are steel. With the shallow contact points, the 8-speed cassettes will rip your 9/10/11 speed freehub body to pieces.

11-speed
Pretty much the same as 10-speed. Beyond my field of expertise...

Having said all that, if you have a combination of hubs and cassettes that you want to use, it is usually possible to change the freehub body on the hub to facilitate the desired combination. After you have changed the freehub body, you will probably need to redish the wheel, since the 9/10/11 speed freehubs are wider than the 8-speed ones. If you don't redish the wheel, your rim will be off-centre, and/or the rear derailleur will go into the spokes when using the lowest gear. Campagnolo advises against upgrading the freehub body on 8-speed Shamals because redishing these wheels to the correct position exceeds the maximum spoke tension recommended. Having said that, I have seen plenty of converted 8-speed Shamals and I've never seen a broken spoke on any of them...

This link is a great visual version of some of the info I have given.

 

[daccordimark]

I recently took a 9 speed freehub off a Mirage hub and put it on an old Chorus 8 speed one with no issues apart from the wheel dish. Its so minor I haven't even bothered to sort it out yet but I will when I have nothing better to do on a rainy weekend. The 9 speed hub will take 10 speed cassettes (I've got a Veloce 10 on mine) and also 11 speed from what I've read.

Campag did move to oversize spindles on their hubs which can trip you up if your old 8 speed hub uses standard spindles.

Mark.

 

[eastsidebikes]

The largest cog on an 11 speed cassette is slightly dished, so much so that it slightly fouls the spoke elbows on certain hubs. Hope hubs are incompatible with 11 speed for this reason. No Campagnolo hubs have this problem as far as I'm aware. I'd definitely recommend trying on an 11 speed cassette before buying if you've got non-campag hubs, could be a very annoying and expensive snafu!

 

[cromoman]

After you have changed the freehub body, you will probably need to redish the wheel, since the 9/10/11 speed freehubs are wider than the 8-speed ones. If you don't redish the wheel, your rim will be off-centre, and/or the rear derailleur will go into the spokes when using the lowest gear

I don't understand this. 8-speed and 9, 10, 11 speed are both 130 OLN. The dishing is surely dependent on the position of the flanges relative to the dropouts. How does this change when you change the freehub?

On another note, if you want to run 8-speed on a 9-speed hub, you can use the 8-speed spacers with 9-speed cogs. You'll need to put a small spacer behind the cassette, and throw away the biggest cog, but it works nicely.

 

[Toff]

As I said before, the 9-speed freehub body is wider, which really means "longer". It needs to be because a 9-speed cassette is 38.2mm wide, whereas an 8-speed cassette is only 36.9mm wide. To fit the longer freehub body on the end of the hub, and still have the cassette turn freely without fouling against the chainstay, the hub needs to be shifted away from the drive side a little bit. This is acheived by taking a spacer off the non drive side and replacing it on the drive side. The hub now sits a little bit to the left, so to speak. Naturally this changes the "position of" both "flanges relative to the dropouts".

To correct for this alignment issue, the spokes on the drive side need to be tightened to be brought more upright, and the spokes on the non drive side need to be loosened to make them steeper.

This is the process of re-dishing the wheel, but it is possible that with some hub models (e.g. Shamals) the spokes can potentially be overtightened, and the fac that the spokes are so upright can cause the derailleur to interfere with the spokes in the largest gears.

The OLD of the hub is unchanged, so it does not come into the equation.

Regarding using 9-speed sprockets with 8-speed spacers... Yes I've heard this works well, but it's not perfect. The 9-speed sprockets are 0.15mm thinner, so it's possible you could end up being just over a mm out of alignment if you go from biggest sprocket to smallest. The trick is to choose a middle cog to align the system up to, so that you are never more than half a mm out of alignment. This is within the functional tolerance of the 8-speed system, so it basically works.

 

[cromoman]

This is acheived by taking a spacer off the non drive side and replacing it on the drive side.

Thanks Toff, that's the bit of info I was missing!

In re the 9-speed cogs with 8-speed spacers. It's running perfectly for me. I have to say that the 8-speed Record ergos have the nicest shifting I've ever used.

 

[daccordimark]

The hub now sits a little bit to the left, so to speak.

Oh, now that's weird because my "dish error" is the other way. My rim sits a bit to the right which is all wrong.

Mark.

 

[Tel]

Toff couple of really informative posts there, thanks.

On this point:
"The other really clever thing that I don't think anyone has ever realised is that since the spline pattern is reversible, when your cassette wears out, you don't have to chuck it away. you can simply turn the worn out cog(s) around and you effectively have a brand new cassette again. No other cassete allows you to double its working life this way."

The old Shimano 6 speed Uniglide cassettes can be flipped in the way you mention which is really useful on old obsolete cassettes.

 

[kbmpi]

http://www.rob4bike.com/product_info.ph ... a635b9b205

I've found this pair of Mirage hubs, F-R, they have the same hub shell shape as my old 8spd Athenas. I guess, the axle is standard diameter, thereby rear hub of this type would be a viable freehub body donor for any of those old campy 8spd hubs.

I'm just guessing by the shape-description.

Unfortunately, the shop lists these as the last available pair : )