Black Klein Attitude

[fguki]

Please quote the exact "eBay rule(s)" you are referring to. And please leave any windy "assumptions" while making your argument.
Even if a seller has 8 or 17 more KLEINS for sale, that does not at all make him an expert on details like drilled out tube guidance and so on.

Lower your expectations when buying used stuff! Take it! Or go away and order a brand new E-bike at your local store.

See, that is the problem! Yes, sellers often conceil stuff. BUT buyers also usually expect way too much from a private seller with a 30 years old bike and 17 possible previous owners.

I am not trying to "defend" this guy. But at least I am trying to put parts of me in his shoes and rather use and rely on my own experience - AND expect a small catastrophy when placing my bid! If its not repairable to me, I simply stay away! And if it takes a pretty costly repair, I will consider that in my highest bid and decrease it! Easy as that.

If the auction in general looks fishy? Simply stay away.

In 22 years of eBay membership and 12.000 feedback points, I have had way too many buyers that have neither eyes nor the ability to read properly.

 

[CassidyAce]

Please quote the exact "eBay rule(s)" you are referring to. And please leave any windy "assumptions" while making your argument.
Even if a seller has 8 or 17 more KLEINS for sale, that does not at all make him an expert on details like drilled out tube guidance and so on.

Lower your expectations when buying used stuff! Take it! Or go away and order a brand new E-bike at your local store.

See, that is the problem! Yes, sellers often conceil stuff. BUT buyers also usually expect way too much from a private seller with a 30 years old bike and 17 possible previous owners.

I am not trying to "defend" this guy. But at least I am trying to put parts of me in his shoes and rather use and rely on my own experience - AND expect a small catastrophy when placing my bid! If its not repairable to me, I simply stay away! And if it takes a pretty costly repair, I will consider that in my highest bid and decrease it! Easy as that.

If the auction in general looks fishy? Simply stay away.

In 22 years of eBay membership and 12.000 feedback points, I have had way too many buyers that have neither eyes nor the ability to read properly.

These observations are irrelevant.

1) If the description is inexact, inaccurate and misleading, it is so regardless of whether that is caused by ignorance or deliberate deception. The cause of the inaccuracy makes no difference to the fact that it's still inaccurate. Whether the seller is an expert or not is irrelevant.

2) 'Lower your expectations when buying used stuff!' This misses the point. Buyers' expectations are informed by the descriptions and that is why they should be accurate. Obviously, used items should be described as 'Used' so that buyers do not expect a new item but, equally, there is no reason why buyers should lower their expectations to below what is outlined in the description.

3) I expect that many buyers do not read descriptions carefully but the problem, in this case, is that even if they do read the description carefully—or more accurately, especially if they read the description carefully—they will get a misleading impression of the item for sale. We are aware of this because @Sherpamustache kindly shared what he had already discovered about this bike but other potential buyers will be misled.

The eBay rule is this: 'Product details must match the item exactly when creating a listing using the eBay catalog'. You can read the policy here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/policie...ription policy&intent=item des&docId=HELP1322

 

[fguki]

1.) Here (below) is the full item description ... please quote exactly, what is "inexact" (what does that even mean! Its a matter or perspective!) "inaccurate" or "misleading" in your eyes ... Very strong words from you indeed for so little argument or foundation!

2.) What is not "accurate" about the description? Believe me! In this case, he is NOT oibligated to EXPLICITLY mention, that is has been re-painted (or drilled) at some point in the past. In fact, he somehow - very intellegently already mentioned that he preferes the black over the pink KLEIN colors if you read closely. He infact sais: He preferes a "black coating" on his bikes! An intelligent way of describing a re-spray for example! Ebay will NOT penalty that! I think you need some very much more experience here!

3.) What exactly causes what you call the "misleading impression" about the item in his text? Please quote and explain!

Sorry, I have been trained in the law field in my professional past at the beginning of the 2000s. Also - as mentioned above - I have my 20 + years of eBay experience with these cases and the customer service in my 12.000 feedback points.

Therefore, I am very curious about your views! They are very entertaining so far! By the way: You make 3 seperate points out of the very same argument. Simply stretching it to death into multiple seperated points basiclly all saying the same think dont make them more convincing or tue.

Here is the exact quoted item description:

NO RESERVE

Hey bicycle lovers

I just decided to sell all my vintage Mountainbikes.

BTW my wife says I need to sell what I don't use anymore ;-)

So here it comes up to some very rare icon for sale.

I think I don’t need to explain on what you are looking right now.

I know most collectors looking for a rigid fork, but in my opinion a Mountainbike is suited with a suspension.

Actually I had both models in my collection

As I´m personally more the understatement type I'm just having black coatings on my Klein, in my opinion the most beautiful as all those colorful and neon coated are not my type. But fortunately: no arguing about taste ;-)

It was just hanging on my wall!


The frameset is in good condition, no dings, dents, cracks or any other structural damages.


[...]

 

[Corduroyboy]

I don’t see a ‘Judy fork’ anywhere there...

 

[CassidyAce]

1.) Here (below) is the full item description ... please quote exactly, what is "inexact" (what does that even mean! Its a matter or perspective!) "inaccurate" or "misleading" in your eyes ... Very strong words from you indeed for so little argument or foundation!

2.) What is not "accurate" about the description? Believe me! In this case, he is NOT oibligated to EXPLICITLY mention, that is has been re-painted (or drilled) at some point in the past. In fact, he somehow - very intellegently already mentioned that he preferes the black over the pink KLEIN colors if you read closely. He infact sais: He preferes a "black coating" on his bikes! An intelligent way of describing a re-spray for example! Ebay will NOT penalty that! I think you need some very much more experience here!

3.) What exactly causes what you call the "misleading impression" about the item in his text? Please quote and explain!

The description is inexact for reasons explained elsewhere in this thread: misrepresentation (it doesn't have a full XT groupset) and omission (failing to mention the drilling). I am unconvinced by your claim that he is not obligated to mention the drilling.

Sorry, I have been trained in the law field in my professional past at the beginning of the 2000s. Also - as mentioned above - I have my 20 + years of eBay experience with these cases and the customer service in my 12.000 feedback points.

You should know the logical fallacy of the appeal to authority then.

Therefore, I am very curious about your views! They are very entertaining so far! By the way: You make 3 seperate points out of the very same argument. Simply stretching it to death into multiple seperated points basiclly all saying the same think dont make them more convincing or tue.

And you should know that this is an illogical and irrelevant ad hominem attack.

 

[Elfman]

Please quote the exact "eBay rule(s)" you are referring to. And please leave any windy "assumptions" while making your argument.
Even if a seller has 8 or 17 more KLEINS for sale, that does not at all make him an expert on details like drilled out tube guidance and so on.

Lower your expectations when buying used stuff! Take it! Or go away and order a brand new E-bike at your local store.

See, that is the problem! Yes, sellers often conceil stuff. BUT buyers also usually expect way too much from a private seller with a 30 years old bike and 17 possible previous owners.

I am not trying to "defend" this guy. But at least I am trying to put parts of me in his shoes and rather use and rely on my own experience - AND expect a small catastrophy when placing my bid! If its not repairable to me, I simply stay away! And if it takes a pretty costly repair, I will consider that in my highest bid and decrease it! Easy as that.

If the auction in general looks fishy? Simply stay away.

In 22 years of eBay membership and 12.000 feedback points, I have had way too many buyers that have neither eyes nor the ability to read properly.

I really disagree with what @fguki is saying....sellers should be up front, honest, and disclose the full condition of what they are selling....because one is not able to inspect in person. I will admit, however, that every time I fully disclose condition (chainsaw for sale, fully functional but needs new spark plug) buyers run the other way.

We live in an asymmetric world, don't we!

 

[Sherpamustache]

It would be like meeting a woman at a party, and when you go home with her, it turns out that her drill is bigger than yours. I guess that will be the face of the buyer when he receives the Klein.

 

[NeeLix]

It may be a great excuse, but when you read the description and see that he has two other Kleins for sale, it doesn't work. At least for me . Fortunately, both eBay and Paypal provide you with a dispute or refund guarantee. Since the listing does not comply with eBay rules. And the seller will have a problem, not only with the final buyer, but also with eBay.
That same frameset was announced and sold here a year ago.

https://www.retrobike.co.uk/threads/frame-set-klein-attitude-90-91.437011/

The bored cable routing wasn't mentioned in this sale either.

https://www.retrobike.co.uk/threads/frame-set-klein-attitude-90-91.437011/

 

[Imlach]

It would be like meeting a woman at a party, and when you go home with her, it turns out that her drill is bigger than yours. I guess that will be the face of the buyer when he receives the Klein.

I'm not competitive about power tools, if she wishes to hang up the shelves that are still stashed away in cardboard boxes, be my guest.

 

[Sherpamustache]

The bored cable routing wasn't mentioned in this sale either.

https://www.retrobike.co.uk/threads/frame-set-klein-attitude-90-91.437011/

No, neither. But she looks at first glance, with some knowledge about the Klein brand. Even MountainKlein was already using internal cable routing. I suppose that many people are "hot" and sometimes buy to buy, without paying attention to the details.