Bernard Carré, Full French,70's, final pics p4, 18.48 lb !

[SIMONFREESE]

Re: Bernard Carré – Anatomy of a Full French - weightweeniish !

This is simply a fantastic thread, so much to learn. As someone that has just started my first French road bike project it makes for very interesting reading!

 

[bduc61]

Re:

6) DERAILLEURS


Well there when you say 70/’s French derailleurs , you say two words : Simplex & Huret :idea:


Models Simplex





But is there a competition really ? it seems Simplex is far behind or better said well above 192g ag 133 g for the rear and
108g ag 80g for the front so a total of 87 g difference in total

Jubilee is on then :idea:

And they can prove it as they say

English Ad



Jubile parts Ad


Ad Shifters which are lighter



Catalog Jubilee


Eclate Rear

Eclate Front


Notice Montage Jubilee



Here there are




I'll try to weigh the Campagnolo Nuovo Record for the sake of comparison :mrgreen:

EDIT : well no contest really - Disraeli gears gives it at 205 g :facepalm:




7) STEM and BAR


Here is the array of competitors for bars that were available on the French market in the 70’s






The true contestants are actually ATAX with the Philippe stem and bar and Belleri – or Belri as you see both names used , God knows why!


Ad Atax Philippe




When you put them on the scale, the fight is rapidly over :mrgreen:

Philippe wins hands high with the combo at 530g against Belri at 650g


Belri Course Stem 280
Belri Bar 370g



Potence Philippe Competition 230
Cintre Philippe Professionnel 300 g




Again, I'll try to see the weight of Cinelli comparable models :idea:

EDIT

A Cinelli 1A in 80 mm in a shorter length than the Philippe is 260g
A giro d'Italia model 64 is 340g

How come all this italian renowned stuff weighs " a ton "

Definitely the only comment possible is "Cocorico" :mrgreen:

 

[sonicyouth]

Re: Re:

Definitely the only comment possible is "Cocorico" :mrgreen:

I think we can , especially for the Jubilée groupset, still unbeaten ...

Here is the weight for a 3ttt combo i sold last month : 592gr (record 100mm / mod gran prix 38cm)

But i think 3ttt Superleggero combo will be far way lighter than Philippe .... under 500gr i guess (handlbar only weight 250gr)

 

[bduc61]

Re: Re:

Definitely the only comment possible is "Cocorico" :mrgreen:

I think we can , especially for the Jubilée groupset, still unbeaten ...

Here is the weight for a 3ttt combo i sold last month : 592gr (record 100mm / mod gran prix 38cm)

But i think 3ttt Superleggero combo will be far way lighter than Philippe .... under 500gr i guess (handlbar only weight 250gr)

it seems 3TTT did have a try at these weightconscious parts :idea:

for saddles, I have read the 3T Super Leggera Alu rail saddle is about 300g which is still 65 g lighter than the Ideale 2002 with titanium rails !
But none ever went through my hands !
The Concor superleggera is also given by Velobase at 260 g :shock:

 

[Midlife]

Re: Bernard Carré – Anatomy of a Full French - weightweeniish !

I have a 70's SR Royal Super Extra Light Stem in the garage along with the matching bars.......... I'll pop it on the scales later

Shaun

 

[sonicyouth]

Re:

ITALIA Sprint (suede), steel rail : 343gr (just in case ... on my ebay)
Not as pretty as Ideale 2002

 

[bduc61]

Re:

We are getting closer to completion ! sorry for the suspense of the final build and pics ( which should possibly be done within 10 days) :facepalm:

HEADSET

The main french company producing headsets at that time was Stronglight. Its light headset was the D6 in alloy and some parts in steel. Incidentally the P3 in steel is also supposed to be as light at 120 g



Catalog D6



Catalog P3 acier D6 S5



Actual D6





But JPR ( Jean Paul Routens) also manufactured light parts and here is his attempt at headset lightness

JPR Ad


Actual JPR





Well actually ther is not much competition : the Stronglight in alu is advertised at 120 g

but the JPR – sometimes engraved BF as mine - is advertised at 68 g !



Luckily my Bernard Carre was already equipped with the headset as it is very rarely seen in France, or very onerous on ebay








9 ) FREEWHEEL

There were several french manufacturers of freewheels namely : Atom, Maillard, Cyclo
But at a stage some were swallowed by others but the make names still existed so it’s a pretty confused scene !

On the scale passed steel freewheels

A Cyclo 72 5V is 294g
An Atom 5V is 327 g
A Maillard Course 5V 381 g


But at a stage Maillard made an effort for a light freewheel.
It was manufactured in alloy - sometimes dubbed Zicral - easily recognized as with a bronze or brown color


Maillard Catalog




The result was amazing !
The body alone is 80g and the 5V I build is 172 g - an enormous weight gain. It will therefore be mounted on the wheels of this full french light






10) TUBULARS

Well for a lightweight, I can’t really pass on tubulars so my bike will have a second set with tubulars.

Mavic and Wolber Super Champion were the main competitors in France for rims and Wolber the strongest on tubulars
Super Champion was actually a stand alone company initially but it was later bought by Wolber.


Rims Array ( USA !)



Ad Mavic Rims





Wolber Tubulars





The wheelset chosen finally is equipped with rims Super Champion Competition Arc en Ciel on very classical Mavic sealed bearings hubs (desctibed earlier on in the hubs part) and period Wolber Neo Pro tubulars.

The hubs are actually Mavic 500, the very first version of these Mavic hubs which became leter the 501




The Arc en Ciel is not the lightest rim from Super Champion but reasonably light at 345 g ( the Performance was 305 and the record du monde 330g)

The weight is really an enormous progress on the clinchers !

Front with skewer is 1060 g
Rear with the Maillard Zicral freewheel is 1260 g

Comparison with another set of tubulars was done

A pair of Mavic Special Sport on Normandy Luxe Competition small flange hubs with skewers and Schwalbe Montello 300 and same Zicral freewheel is

Front Wheel 1130g
Rear Wheel 1390 g

For info Clinchers weighed previously ( Module E on Pelissier 2000 professionnel and Michelin Bib) and same freewheel

Front Wheel 1250 g
Rear Wheel 1570 g


Actual Wheels pic

 

[bduc61]

Re:

11) PEDALS and Sundries

Lyotard was the main french pedals manufacturer in France, followed by Maillard / Atom

Catalogue Lyotard 1977



One interesting and rare pedal I had a look at is the Lyotard MB23



But despite the stylish design , it weighs 190 g


So in my stock, I digged out a few pairs , one all alloy and which may be Lyotard 45ter but the dustcaps are not signed so they are probably French copies. They weigh 143 g : tempting

Other Maillard or Lyotard models are 158 or 162 g and Maillard 700 with toe clips and straps 460 the full pair

For the moment I am not really decided – will choose at the last minute I expect. Possibly the lightest :mrgreen:

Toe clips and straps will either be Gerardin or Christophe, the ubiquitous equipement on all French road racing pedals. I ll probably go Christophe

What do you fancy - black or blue strap – here on pic a dark blue NOS pair. :?:


Here are the potential pedals , toe clips and straps candidates.




The handlebar tape will be TESSOREX also the dominant make in France.

Shall I go for the blue ? or stay black ?




CLB Housing

Again there isn’t much choice in the lightweight housing for cables available at that time
The CLB housing without plastic cover in alu

Here an original selling wrapping – It is advertised at 85 g




Mine recovered on old studs




So we are very close to completion - I have started to add all these weights and ...........

well I'll keep the suspense on

I have given you most of the clues but left a very few out :idea: :mrgreen:

Instead I'll ask you what would you be considering a very good result or even "Target" for this full french lightweight 70's race stud (both in pounds and ounces and kilos )
or else said : what would be considered as an achievement at that time :idea:

We’ll see soon if I can take up the gauntlet as the old knights would have said at Crecy :facepalm:

 

[bduc61]

Re:

Nobody old or experienced enough to tell me what would have been a 70's target for a light race road bike :idea:

The question was frank - I have been looking on the net but did not find anything informative :?

 

[torqueless]

Re:

Not claiming any definitive wisdom in this area, but late seventies, in Anglo-numbers, twenty pounds was a nice round figure to try to come in under- including pedals, of course.
As far as I can remember, an average-sized steel state-of-the-art geared road bike (rather than time-trial bike) would be around that weight, usually a little over.
I haven't added your numbers up, so I've no idea how high (or low) that figure sets the bar?
I'm pretty certain I've never had a sub-twenty pound road bike, or made much effort to achieve one, so I defer to those who, for all I know, may have routinely ridden such machines back then.