Are 653 stays the same as 753?

[Cossington]

My first 'proper' road bike was made of Reynolds 653 tubing. Seemed nice enough, but I had nothing else to compare it to.

Roll on through a good few years and many bikes have had the dubious pleasure of being owned and ridden by me.

Another 653 frame has become available with a 125mm rear dropout width, and I have a query.

My vague understanding is that 653 is not a metal tube-set in its own right, but a mix of 531 and 753 tubes. Is this correct? More particularly, are the seat and chain stays of a 653 frame, actually 753 (and therefore not to be 'cold-set' or 'sprung', to accommodate a modern 130mm rear hub)?

Any opinions or leads gratefully received. I've tried Googling with no real answer appearing.

Many thanks,

David

 

[ekallus]

See below from Wikipedia. Check out 653 entry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_Cycle_Technology


However, the story doesn't seem to be that simple. See this thread below

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/retro- ... 24502.html

Sorry if this serves to confuse...

Ernst

 

[Cossington]

Ernst,

Many thanks for your reply and those links. I was getting similar confusing/ conflicting details when I searched. I have e-mailed Reynolds direct and hope they will clarify the tube-set make-up.

For such a popular tube-set you'd have thought the information would be reasonably widely known/ available, even if now some years old.

Any other recollections/ links ?

Thanks,

David

 

[Theeb]

Hi David,
I bought a 653 frame some time ago and have been wondering the same thing - it's already spaced to 130mm so I'm not looking to cold-set it - my interest is purely academic.
I'd appreciate knowing what Reynolds say in response....
Tim

 

[ekallus]

This seems to confirm that 653 was mixed tubes with 753 stays.

http://fivenineclimber.com/bikes/gazell ... lds_80.htm

Ernst

 

[Cossington]

I have to say I'm very impressed by Reynolds. They have sent me a reply overnight.

Keith Noronha of Reynolds Technology replied -

Hello David,
The 653 tube-set had 531 main tubes and 753 stays - a way of changing the ride "feel" at the time.
Regards
Keith Noronha.

Ernst, this confirms the findings from the link you posted. Thank you.

So, from this, presumably, the issues relating to not springing the stays of a 753 frame (to insert a wider hub than the frame was designed to accommodate) apply equally to a 653 frame.

Regards,

David

 

[Qubit]

Ive always wondered about this. To make a 753 frame a frame builder had to be first certified on the silver brazing (at least thats my understanding) So how does that work with 753 stays being brazed to normal 531 or lugs? (remembering that these are essentially all the same material).

To the best of my knowledge the silver brazing was used to prevent overheating of the already heat-treated 753 tubes. If they were normally brazed would this lead to a slightly weaker frame? Not saying its not true, just a bit odd!

Maybe ill have a look (by which i mean pinging the stays/tubes etc) at both my Peugeots when i get home as Ive got almost identical framesets from same era, 1 in 653 and one in 753.)

 

[Cossington]

Qubit,

As you say, presumably the builders of 653 needed to have that 753 accreditation. (ie Supplied with a set of 753 tubes, construct as frame and send it to Raleigh to be analysed, before being granted approval to build with commercially with 753).

Any further 'pinging' (or other) feedback keenly received.

Best wishes,

David

 

[danson67]

The legendary 753 test was carried out on a Reynolds cast bottom bracket, stays and tubes supplied as a test kit.

Here's mine from 1992:

It was sent back to Reynolds, who presumably tested it to destruction and issued a certificate if it passed:

IIRC it cost £45 at the time. Personally I've always preferred Columbus, but a 753 certificate was pretty much a prerequisite for any aspiring builder and a great marketing tool for Reynolds...

There's no problem joining 753 to any other steel, as long as it is done with low temp (c.600 deg) silver solder in accordance with the 753 methods.
Brass. SifBronze etc, which would have been OK for 531 at around 850 deg, would ruin the temper of 753.

Conversely, the new air hardening alloys (853/953) need the high temperature, from brazing or welding, to gain their full strength. A silver soldered 853 frame will not be as strong as a brazed one.

All the best,

 

[Qubit]

Interesting reading Dan (and nice work judging from the pic!) I wondered if the 653 tube set would require silver solder for the stays, and hence likely restricted to those with 753 accreditation.

Using the extremely scientific method of pinging the tubes, I can confirm that the stays on my Peugeot 653 and 753 frames sound almost identical when 'pinged'!