Am I being unreasonable?

[ovlov440]

Is the OP being unreasonable? Yes and No imo.

It's probably not reasonable to expect 16 year old bearings to be covered by a global bike company - regardless of what promises were made, but stranger things have happened so no harm in asking either.

Would I further pursue them over £40 worth of bearings? No, my free time is worth more than that. At most, I might reply expressing my disappointment as that has occasionally surfaced some kind of concession or gesture of good will from other companies. Some customer service systems work on the basis that the vaguely persistent customer can be offered a small gesture without having to escalate.

... which is exactly what I have already done. The point is not to pursue for a consumable part, but the trust in a manufacturer that has made a promise in the firm of a warranty and then will not honour it because they later changed their terms. If your frame with a lifetime warranty failed, economic value aside, would you be happy to accept a manufacturer not honouring it because some years after you purchased it they changed their feet? That's the point I am making. I said in my original post that £40 is not the end of the world, and it isn't but having experience of a manufacturer that will not honour a warranty could have a greater impact on my trust in them in the future. My past experience dealing with manufacturers and warranty claims, especially Trek and Cannondale was always good, never an issue. Only once did we have a claim turned down by Specialized (17st chap doing drop offs on a £400 Rockhopper and wondering why his BB kept failing) so maybe my expectations were too high. Like others have eluded to, I think Marin were nuts to offer the warranty in the first place, but offer it they did so they should not be surprised when someone asks them to honour it.

 

[greencat]

Is the OP being unreasonable? Yes and No imo.

It's probably not reasonable to expect 16 year old bearings to be covered by a global bike company - regardless of what promises were made, but stranger things have happened so no harm in asking either.

Would I further pursue them over £40 worth of bearings? No, my free time is worth more than that. At most, I might reply expressing my disappointment as that has occasionally surfaced some kind of concession or gesture of good will from other companies. Some customer service systems work on the basis that the vaguely persistent customer can be offered a small gesture without having to escalate.

... which is exactly what I have already done. The point is not to pursue for a consumable part, but the trust in a manufacturer that has made a promise in the firm of a warranty and then will not honour it because they later changed their terms. If your frame with a lifetime warranty failed, economic value aside, would you be happy to accept a manufacturer not honouring it because some years after you purchased it they changed their feet? That's the point I am making. I said in my original post that £40 is not the end of the world, and it isn't but having experience of a manufacturer that will not honour a warranty could have a greater impact on my trust in them in the future. My past experience dealing with manufacturers and warranty claims, especially Trek and Cannondale was always good, never an issue. Only once did we have a claim turned down by Specialized (17st chap doing drop offs on a £400 Rockhopper and wondering why his BB kept failing) so maybe my expectations were too high. Like others have eluded to, I think Marin were nuts to offer the warranty in the first place, but offer it they did so they should not be surprised when someone asks them to honour it.

I would not be happy, but I would also not be surprised if they didn't honour it (based on past experiences with other companies). I now treat the promise of any kind of warranty as marketing guff. At best, it gives you an indication how long their expect their goods to last (little more than a year in most cases).

I think you were right to ask - and send a follow up reply. As George Bernard Shaw suggests: all progress is made by unreasonable people. I, however, cannot be arsed to be unreasonable anymore.

It is the hope that a company would honour their promise which I think is unreasonable in today's world, not the attempt to get them to do so.

I also think you were right to post your experience. Dixons, British Gas & On-One are all companies which have screwed me over in the past - and as a result, I have no problem repeating my stories whenever appropriate as a warning to others. The only thing some companies care about is their short term bottom line - and so if I can (and others) repeat our stories enough times, we inflict enough economic damage to get them to change.

 

[sinnerman]

Re:

Perhaps, your email wasnt detailed enough....

I would think, if you explained that you were EX trade, and that your wife has carefully used her bike and you as a professionally trained bicycle mechanic, have diligently maintained it and cleaned it throughout its life, always being mindful to service it, and keep an eye out for danger signs on the moving parts.

However you were horrified that all the bearings that came with a lifetime warranty all failed at exactly the same time, there was no warning, they simply failed due to poor quality materials and workmanship.

I think they would be horrified that this was the case....

 

[d8mok]

Re:

Did you buy it brand new in 2004? Still have the warranty card or receipt?

 

[dyna-ti]

'lifetime warranty'

I think from reading the sum of this thread the problem is nobody has bothered their 4r5e to go find out what the life expectency of a sealed cartridge bearing is.

And in that time should it fail, slacken off and become loose(play) then it would fall under warranty, but after that manufacturers life expectancy is just gravy.

Personally I would think a bearing in use in a pivot, where its just going up and down in a short travel should last 10 years, and bearings in for example wheel hubs, maybe 2 years, and headsets also about ten(Chris king)
It's usually measured in either hours of use, or miles traveled, which in hubs Ive seen an expectancy of 100,000 miles.
Now you can accept that hub bearings, and also headset bearings will wear, and slacken to develop play.

Its not about currys or any other experience with a seller ore maker, its about the manufacturers life expectancy of a bearing. And that will be set, and not open to Tom,Dick or Harry's personal opinion(OR it would have been long capitalized by a large company which spends ££$$ on bearings for industry. Even spinning freely a bearing will have a set life.). There will be a set time in use its expected to last, and even if you use it only 20 times in 20 years and then on year 21 discover the bearings are worn, then its out with the life span expectancy so no warranty would be applied.

 

[ovlov440]

'lifetime warranty'

I think from reading the sum of this thread the problem is nobody has bothered their 4r5e to go find out what the life expectency of a sealed cartridge bearing is.

And in that time should it fail, slacken off and become loose(play) then it would fall under warranty, but after that manufacturers life expectancy is just gravy.

Personally I would think a bearing in use in a pivot, where its just going up and down in a short travel should last 10 years, and bearings in for example wheel hubs, maybe 5 years.
Now you can accept that hub bearings, and also headset bearings will wear, and slacken to develop play.

Its not about currys or any other experience with a seller ore maker, its about the manufacturers life expectancy of a bearing. And that will be set, and not open to Tom,Dick or Harry's personal opinion(OR it would have been long capitalized by a large company which spends ££$$ on bearings for industry. Even spinning freely a bearing will have a set life.). There will be a set time in use its expected to last, and even if you use it only 20 times in 20 years and then on year 21 discover the bearings are worn, then its out with the life span expectancy so no warranty would be applied.

...and therein lies the issue. Define 'lifetime' If you ask the average Joe in the street it will be forever. If you were to apply 'lifetime' to a frame, say a 90's aluminium one then what is the 'lifetime' of that - depends on many factors (miles/type of riding/where it's been stored etc etc) but no-one expects a frame to fail so under a lifetime warranty you would expect it to be replaced if it failed. So why should 'lifetime' be different when applied to different things.

Going back to my original post £40 is not the end of the world. I am not saying it is unreasonable for bearings to fail after a period of time, not at all and £40 for those after 15/6 years works out as good value. But it is a point to note that it would appear that manufacturers (one at least) think it is ok to offer a warranty with a 'lifetime' definition and then retrospectively remove it. That doesn't sit right with me, whether it's for what we all know is a consumable item or one that isn't. I am not surprised they no longer offer the warranty, it was nuts in the first place but it does call into question the trust in a manufacturer when they are not willing to stand by their word.

Feel free to reply to that, happy for the discussion to carry on if you have something sensible to add. Sarcasm and trying to talk down to a 47 year old isn't required (not you dyna-ti)

 

[sinnerman]

Is the OP being unreasonable? Yes and No imo.

It's probably not reasonable to expect 16 year old bearings to be covered by a global bike company - regardless of what promises were made, but stranger things have happened so no harm in asking either.

Would I further pursue them over £40 worth of bearings? No, my free time is worth more than that. At most, I might reply expressing my disappointment as that has occasionally surfaced some kind of concession or gesture of good will from other companies. Some customer service systems work on the basis that the vaguely persistent customer can be offered a small gesture without having to escalate.

... which is exactly what I have already done. The point is not to pursue for a consumable part, but the trust in a manufacturer that has made a promise in the firm of a warranty and then will not honour it because they later changed their terms. If your frame with a lifetime warranty failed, economic value aside, would you be happy to accept a manufacturer not honouring it because some years after you purchased it they changed their feet? That's the point I am making. I said in my original post that £40 is not the end of the world, and it isn't but having experience of a manufacturer that will not honour a warranty could have a greater impact on my trust in them in the future. My past experience dealing with manufacturers and warranty claims, especially Trek and Cannondale was always good, never an issue. Only once did we have a claim turned down by Specialized (17st chap doing drop offs on a £400 Rockhopper and wondering why his BB kept failing) so maybe my expectations were too high. Like others have eluded to, I think Marin were nuts to offer the warranty in the first place, but offer it they did so they should not be surprised when someone asks them to honour it.

I would not be happy, but I would also not be surprised if they didn't honour it (based on past experiences with other companies). I now treat the promise of any kind of warranty as marketing guff. At best, it gives you an indication how long their expect their goods to last (little more than a year in most cases).

I think you were right to ask - and send a follow up reply. As George Bernard Shaw suggests: all progress is made by unreasonable people. I, however, cannot be arsed to be unreasonable anymore.

It is the hope that a company would honour their promise which I think is unreasonable in today's world, not the attempt to get them to do so.

I also think you were right to post your experience. Dixons, British Gas & On-One are all companies which have screwed me over in the past - and as a result, I have no problem repeating my stories whenever appropriate as a warning to others. The only thing some companies care about is their short term bottom line - and so if I can (and others) repeat our stories enough times, we inflict enough economic damage to get them to change.

You quote sarcasm etc, any yet you ask a question not expecting anything other than smoke to be blown up your ass, you quote your a ex trade, bicycle mechanic who has looked after said bike for the last 16 years. (if so, then you ought to know better to be fair).

I call bullshit, im sorry.

In the event, that you had enlightened Marin to your actual plight as i have suggested, your response from them would be different.

But i think the best idea....

Would be for you to post online, Rally some support, Rage against the machine, Run the company down to the absolute lowest for all there lack of interest, support, and "Honesty", and give yourself a tale to tell to anybody that will listen, repeat the story enough times that you can inflict some economic damage on the company, for perhaps your next 47 years.

Problem solved, and you get what you want....

 

[FluffyChicken]

Difference of opinion I see.

People that believe companies should stand by their warranties, since it will cost the single person a small amount of money and the person has trust in the company respects the warranty given.

People that believe companies should tell the customer to feck off, not our problem because it will cost them a small amount of money and the warranty is there to ignore.

and the difference between lifetime warranty (2004 apparently ) and limited warranty (2005 if you go look it up) are the same?

It should be noted, I am assuming the 2004 lifetime warranty has no small print terms, mainly since I cannot find it.

Knowing bearings will not last if used has naff all to do with it, this is about what was offered at the time.
Marin would know, at the time of the offer, that bearings wear out*, they would take a gamble that not enough people will claim to loose out overall.


*I'm pretty certain we can assume that, Marin being many more years in the trade and experience than ovlov440

 

[dyna-ti]

Define 'lifetime' If you ask the average Joe in the street it will be forever.

It doesn't matter what the man in the street thinks. The question might as well be on aircraft dynamics for all the actual experience or knowledge he has of the subject.
Theres a set group of rules applying to this and nobody posting on here knows what they are.

Personally I cant be 4r5ed going to find what the patent office or government or industry standards commission has this information, but it will be somewhere.


I think you really made Marin's day, and they're still laughing their 4r5es off.

 

[sinnerman]

Re:

Another question posed that has significant relevance, before Marin gets burned at the stake for the next 47 years.

And a fair question asked....

Where is the Receipt for purchase and the warranty card, in the name of the current owner.

Because before we all go off on a tangent ref warranties etc and what Marin should or shouldn't do, its clear by his own volition what the OP is trying to achieve long term.

Lets see the receipt/invoice and warranty card, for with out this, the whole thread is pointless, The warranty is for the Original owner, no one else, if this cannot be demonstrated, at the outset your Fcuked.

and even then you would have to demonstrate, its not been neglected.